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Old 05-17-2012, 08:01 PM
 
312 posts, read 1,369,080 times
Reputation: 466

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Thanks OpenD, I was about to say the same thing.
Plastic is, in general, a terrible thing for this planet!

And despite the fact that paper bags will become used more, it will also help people use reusable bags more and remember to actually bring them!
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:49 PM
 
Location: Maui County, HI
4,131 posts, read 7,406,693 times
Reputation: 3391
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Paper is better for the environment because it is is 1) made from a renewable resource 2) is highly recyclable and is, in fact, widely recycled, and 3) is biodegradable when its life-cycle has ended.

Plastic bags are 1) made from non-renewable fossil fuels, 2) in practice are not widely recycled, and 3) are not normally biodegradable.

The feedstock for making paper today is practically an agricultural product, using farm-grown fast-growth trees bred especially for the purpose, and harvested by giant machines. Once virgin fiber has entered the paper stream it can be recycled as many as 8 times. We recycle so much of it that it's an export product for the US.

The best, of course is reusable bags, but people will never remember to bring reusable bags every time, so some throwaway bags will always be needed. Though more expensive than plastic bags, paper bags are far better for the environment.
Trees aren't really a renewable resource. You're taking nutrients out of the soil and at some tree farms fertilizer and water are used to speed up growing. And if the land wasn't used to grow paper trees, it would be habitat... Just like every other kind of agriculture. And old growth forest is still used to make paper, despite the paper industry propaganda. What percentage of paper bags is actually recycled? 20%? 10%? Paper manufacture is also a very dirty industry, including paper recycling.

It takes a tiny tiny amount of oil to make a plastic bag. Far less than you used to drive to the store. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if it takes more fossil fuel to make a paper bag than a plastic one.


Edit: Yep, I was right. It takes 4x as much energy to make a paper bag and 20x as much water. Only 10-15% of paper bags are recycled.
http://greentopiafestival.com/2012/03/paper-or-plastic/
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Old 05-17-2012, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Macao
16,265 posts, read 42,980,152 times
Reputation: 10231
Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
Trees aren't really a renewable resource. You're taking nutrients out of the soil and at some tree farms fertilizer and water are used to speed up growing. And if the land wasn't used to grow paper trees, it would be habitat... Just like every other kind of agriculture. And old growth forest is still used to make paper, despite the paper industry propaganda. What percentage of paper bags is actually recycled? 20%? 10%? Paper manufacture is also a very dirty industry, including paper recycling.

It takes a tiny tiny amount of oil to make a plastic bag. Far less than you used to drive to the store. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if it takes more fossil fuel to make a paper bag than a plastic one.


Edit: Yep, I was right. It takes 4x as much energy to make a paper bag and 20x as much water. Only 10-15% of paper bags are recycled.
Paper or Plastic? - Greentopia Festival
Usually when I think of plastic bags though...I think of something that's going to be floating around in the oceans (or wherever it settles) for the next few 100 years....maybe I'm wrong about that though.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:29 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,969 posts, read 28,274,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
It takes a tiny tiny amount of oil to make a plastic bag.
Spoken like a true Texan. But once that oil is gone it is gone forever, from a practical standpoint. And each tiny amount adds up. There's no way you can put any back.

Paper, however, is eminently renewable and recyclable. Using hydroelectric power to make the paper draws down no non-renewable resources at all.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:21 AM
 
Location: Hawaii-Puna District
3,752 posts, read 11,458,340 times
Reputation: 2481
Well... A lot of the plastic bags now have an additive that makes them break down once they are discarded, plus, there are now are large number of them made with biodegradable corn products.

Just because it looks like a "bad" plastic bad, doesn't mean that it is "bad".

Same thing with "Styrofoam peanuts" used in packing. Many companies now use the ones made with corn starch which dissolve in water.

PS - to OpenD - no need to make a personal attack on winkosmosis for being a "Texan" ? What is the point?
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:32 AM
 
Location: Coastal Mid-Atlantic
6,711 posts, read 4,362,107 times
Reputation: 8302
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdand3boys View Post
Well... A lot of the plastic bags now have an additive that makes them break down once they are discarded, plus, there are now are large number of them made with biodegradable corn products.

Just because it looks like a "bad" plastic bad, doesn't mean that it is "bad".
You should see the documentary called " Bag it ''. Its a 2 hour show about plastic bags and plastic products. I didnt know alot of countries around the world have outlawed plastic bags, and some countries even charge you a fee to use them. A good part on there about re-cycling. All that re-cycling you are doing, thinking you are doing good for the environment, its a waste of time. Most of those plastics are not recycleable, even though it says they are.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:51 AM
 
Location: Maui County, HI
4,131 posts, read 7,406,693 times
Reputation: 3391
Quote:
Originally Posted by OpenD View Post
Spoken like a true Texan. But once that oil is gone it is gone forever, from a practical standpoint. And each tiny amount adds up. There's no way you can put any back.

Paper, however, is eminently renewable and recyclable. Using hydroelectric power to make the paper draws down no non-renewable resources at all.
That's assuming the power used to make the paper is hydroelectric... And hydroelectric has huge environmental impacts.

Don't forget the chemicals involved in paper making.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:17 AM
 
Location: Volcano
12,969 posts, read 28,274,821 times
Reputation: 10755
Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
That's assuming the power used to make the paper is hydroelectric... And hydroelectric has huge environmental impacts.

Don't forget the chemicals involved in paper making.
No matter how you try to spin it, in the balance, plastic bags consume an irreplaceable fossil resource, and are a disposal problem. The only reason they ever made headway in the marketplace is that they are cheaper.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:18 AM
 
Location: Upstate New York
263 posts, read 1,001,715 times
Reputation: 200
Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
That's assuming the power used to make the paper is hydroelectric... And hydroelectric has huge environmental impacts.

Don't forget the chemicals involved in paper making.
What are the huge environmental impacts?
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:41 AM
 
Location: Moku Nui, Hawaii
11,048 posts, read 23,873,855 times
Reputation: 10901
Well, if you want sustainable bags, a friend of mine makes them of cotton. It grows around here and comes in white, green and brown. He picks the seeds out, spins it into yarn and crochets that into these handy shopping bags. We are going to work up the pattern so other folks will be able to make them, too. He may start selling them up at the farmer's market in Waimea. Locally grown, no chemicals, no power necessary, no irrigation. How much more sustainable can it get?
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