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Old 06-10-2012, 06:47 PM
 
236 posts, read 645,883 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
BTW a Prius isn't affordable. They hardly depreciate at all. Even regular small cars like Toyota Yaris etc are overvalued in Hawaii... You could buy a 20 year old one for $4000, and then have $3000 in repair bills in one year once things start breaking. There is no way for driving to be affordable in Hawaii.

A scooter isn't viable except on back streets. You can't go fast enough on the highway, and in the city it's too dangerous.

The other schemes like buying property and renting out require a lot of money. The average household income in Hawaii can't afford a house, much less one with an ohana to rent out. If you're too poor to even afford internet access and sugar, you can't afford a house.


Here's how to make Hawaii affordable... Be rich

Keep in mind that I'm mainly talking about a middle-class person whose saved up a few bucks over 10-40 years, and is looking to retire or semi-retire, and wants to keep his costs down. So you're not necessarily starting from scratch.

You can buy an 8 year-old Prius (like mine) for $10K or less on the mainland, and ship it over when you're ready to move. Not dirt cheap, but last time I checked, most middle-class people were still buying brand-new cars for $20K plus. (Wasteful, but true.) So your typical person could in fact buy the Prius while they're working, pay it off, ship it over, and have a very affordable vehicle on Hawaii. (Toyotas are also pretty reliable, and don't usually need extensive repairs.)

Buying something 20 years old would be iffy, but would generally be less than $4K on the mainland (closer to $2K). A better idea is to buy a Toyota/Honda that's about 10 years old, with about $100K miles on it. You can generally get these for under $5K, and they generally run fine, with only minimal repairs needed (like my last car, a 96 Celica, which did me well for 6 years and 100K miles).

In terms of scooters/bikes, I'm not talking about daily commutes into Honolulu. I'm mainly thinking about living near a smaller city, which will probably be cheaper to begin with. I see no reason a scooter or motorcycle (posssibly enduro) wouldn't be feasible in that context.

In terms of owning a home in Hawaii and renting out a room -- I'm again talking about middle-class people who have saved money over time on the Mainland. Someone who has done that intelligently can potentially buy a house in Hawaii, and rent out a room, possibly even a small guest cottage, if the zoning (or neighbors) allow. (A youngster or broke person would be better served seeking a group-housing situation, as noted.)

In terms of sugar/internet vs. housing, the entire point is that if you eliminate unnecessary items like these, true necessities like owning a home become far more affordable. In other words, you may not be able to afford a home anywhere blowing your money on things you don't need, but if you adjust your spending, it may become affordable.

I think one major problem in our country is that we've largely become accustomed to living relatively spoiled/wasteful lifestyles, where it's normal to waste tens of thousands yearly on eating out, processed food, internet/cable, alcohol, vacations, unnecessarily large homes and utility bills, new cars, etc. I personally see this with autoworkers as well as professionals. Over a decade, you're talking hundreds of thousands blown on unnecessary items.

Maybe it's because I grew up without any money, and had to live very frugally immediately after college, but I know for a fact it doesn't really cost that much to live simply most places, as long as you're not wasting your money. Again, no one had A.C., television, internet, or cell phones not long ago, and they all somehow survived.

I agree that if you're congenitally accustomed to living a realtively lush lifestyle, and are unwilling to adjust your spending habits, then Hawaii (and other expensive areas) will only be affordable if you're rich. However, if you don't fall into that category, and are willing to adjust your consumption patterns, save, invest, and thereby reduce your monthly nut long-term, any place can be affordable. It's all a matter of thoughtful resource utilization.

(Again, if you're younger, or have no money, the first starting point would probably be finding a group house where you can keep your rent costs down. And then not eating out. Those two factors, along with a having a moped vs. a car, would seem to put you in line with a comparable-salaried person anywhere else in the country. Other threads have noted grocery prices as only about 150% mainland prices. Skipping A.C. is also perfectly feasible, especially in the right areas -- I had no A.C. my first year in D.C., which is basically a swamp, and probably more miserable than Hawaii in the summer.)

But I think recognizing the difference between true necessities and luxuries/conveniences/extras is a major first step in saving money and living feasibly in high-cost areas without a ton of cash. You can always indulge in extras to some extent from time to time, I'm just amazed how much people generally waste. One of my cousins in Mexico was getting $2500 in child support payments monthly, and had no rent b/c she lived in her mom's place, which was paid off. She was saving NOTHING, and claimed she couldn't, even though her real nut for food and utilities was maybe a grand a month. (And the typical person in Mexico earns less than half that.)

I know another guy who is earning nearly $300K (top 5%) a year in a cheap part of the country, and who not only didn't save anything over the past five years, but actually borrowed on his house. I asked him why, and he said "well, we're all living paycheck to paycheck, right?" Which is largely true, it just doesn't explain why we're engaging in such idiocy when we often don't have to. Our grandparents lived on half as much as we make, and still saved more, and borrowed less.
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Maui County, HI
4,131 posts, read 7,408,060 times
Reputation: 3391
In other words, Hawaii can only be affordable if you earn money elsewhere for a few decades then move here and live in poverty!
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:20 PM
 
1,872 posts, read 2,796,783 times
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It's amazing what "poor" people own today. I grew up in a poor family. We had food,(most of which we grew for ourselves) and not much else. Today, "poor" people have iPhones, computers and HUGE televisions!
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Oahu
431 posts, read 935,744 times
Reputation: 588
I grow Bearss limes, Meyer lemons, variegated pink lemons, and calamansi. All in bigass pots. One tree of each citrus variety and I get more than enough for myself and also some for neighbors and friends. I also freeze the Meyer lemon juice in ice cube trays and pop out the cubes into ziploc bags for storage.
I grow Manoa lettuce in window boxes and eggplant, tomatoes, green onions, peppers, cucumbers and herbs in big pots off the ground on a platform I made out of 2X4's and cinder blocks. Drip irrigation for all, on a timer. No wasteful sprays or sprinklers. Each plant has emitters that have inline valves so I can cut down the water when the plants are little and turn up the water as needed as they grow.
Maybe it's not cost-effective...I don't know. I do know that I can be sure that no poisons were sprayed on my fruits and vegetables and that's worth it to me. And it's awfully nice to just walk out into the yard and grab what I need for a salad or cooking. Oh, and calamansi is the absolute best citrus to add to an adult beverage!
About the title of this thread---just what constitutes "affordable"? If you mean affordable within the context of your own income then it would be nice if that context were defined. Then it would be a matter of suggesting ways of budgeting and living within your own personal means---people here have some great ideas. If you feel that you personally can only survive within the confines of austerity, alright then. That's what's "affordable" for you. I do detect an bit of resentment in a few posts here and if that's the case then perhaps moving here with such feelings might not be the best thing for you. Many move here and live frugally and are happy doing so but if there is a feeling that you are among the "have nots" and harbor resentment for the "haves" then the move requires closer examination, IMHO. Not a nice way to live, no matter what the weather.
If you're talking about ways to save money in general then okay but "affordable" is such a vague variable.

Last edited by PaliPatty; 06-10-2012 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Maui County, HI
4,131 posts, read 7,408,060 times
Reputation: 3391
Quote:
Originally Posted by McFrostyJ View Post
It's amazing what "poor" people own today. I grew up in a poor family. We had food,(most of which we grew for ourselves) and not much else. Today, "poor" people have iPhones, computers and HUGE televisions!
There has been at least one study that looked at this kind of thing. People today spend less on appliances, clothes, food, etc than they did a few generations ago... That includes modern inventions like computers and whatnot. So if you had a fridge and a stove growing up, chances are they cost you more than a modern poor person's fridge, stove, and computer.

Edit:
http://twoincometrapbestblogever.blo...tion-myth.html

Last edited by winkosmosis; 06-10-2012 at 09:42 PM..
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:52 PM
 
1,872 posts, read 2,796,783 times
Reputation: 2168
Quote:
Originally Posted by winkosmosis View Post
So if you had a fridge and a stove growing up, chances are they cost you more than a modern poor person's fridge, stove, and computer.
NOPE! Like I said, we were poor. All of our appliances came from friends, relatives, garage sales etc.... I remember when we got our first color TV. Dad came home with it and said, "I really hated to spend that $5, but it is so big!" (It was a 25" console TV.)
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Dublin, Ohio
406 posts, read 861,155 times
Reputation: 386
Default Gardens in Hawaii

Google "gardening in Hawaii" and you will come up with several sites about it. Also, there is a book (may be out of print, but available used) titled Gardening in Hawaii: Handbook for the Home Gardener. Also, there is one titled Container Gardening in Hawaii: How to Grow Paradise in a Pot. There are probably several others as well. Remember Google Is Your Friend!

A couple of good web sites are:
Green-Trust.Org | Living Sustainably . Wander around the site for lots of info on "sustainable living".

and ESSN Magazine . Check out the downloads section for complete back issue downloads.

Mickey
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:41 PM
 
941 posts, read 1,955,986 times
Reputation: 1338
I think you're right that fruit trees are the way to go (lower maintenance, high yield). But you either have to find a property (rental or purchase) with the trees, or wait 5-10 years. Other forms of gardening are more work, and thus less efficient. As mentioned, they're great for health reasons, and if you enjoy the work, it's more of a hobby, and you do save some money and get the satisfaction of eating what you grow. But if you want to optimize your time for work or recreation, I think you're better off shopping at the farmer's market (or Costco).

alex7777 wrote: "I would personally want some sort of the Dairy for my smoothies, and for Vitamin D..." Actually, coconut meat from a medium old coconut (so firm, but not tough) is excellent in smoothies, it gives a delicious creamy taste. Plus coconut fat isn't as bad as dairy fat, and there is some evidence it is not bad at all when not processed (ie hydrogenated). As for vitamin D, you're in Hawaii, your body makes its own in the sun. This milk thing is just another example of bringing your own hang-ups and preferences to the issue. If you want affordable, it's easy to give up dairy in Hawaii.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Oahu
431 posts, read 935,744 times
Reputation: 588
Quote:
Originally Posted by MickeyE View Post
Google "gardening in Hawaii" and you will come up with several sites about it. Also, there is a book (may be out of print, but available used) titled Gardening in Hawaii: Handbook for the Home Gardener. Also, there is one titled Container Gardening in Hawaii: How to Grow Paradise in a Pot. There are probably several others as well. Remember Google Is Your Friend!

A couple of good web sites are:
Green-Trust.Org | Living Sustainably . Wander around the site for lots of info on "sustainable living".

and ESSN Magazine . Check out the downloads section for complete back issue downloads.

Mickey
Great links---thank you!
If anyone is interested in container gardening I've found one of the best all-around books to be "The Bountiful Container" by McGee and Stuckey.

Amazon.com: McGee & Stuckey's Bountiful Container: Create Container Gardens of Vegetables, Herbs, Fruits, and Edible Flowers (9780761116233): Rose Marie Nichols McGee, Maggie Stuckey: Books

It's not Hawaii-specific but containers don't seem to know the difference.

I've bought copies for other people who wanted to know more about container gardening. A lot of other books about container gardening seem to spend a lot of time on big flower pots, not edibles, including one that I bought called "Container Gardening in Hawaii" which had only a small chapter on fruits and veggies with the main focus on bonsai, orchids, hanging plants, etc.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Maui County, HI
4,131 posts, read 7,408,060 times
Reputation: 3391
Quote:
Originally Posted by KauaiHiker View Post
I think you're right that fruit trees are the way to go (lower maintenance, high yield). But you either have to find a property (rental or purchase) with the trees, or wait 5-10 years. Other forms of gardening are more work, and thus less efficient. As mentioned, they're great for health reasons, and if you enjoy the work, it's more of a hobby, and you do save some money and get the satisfaction of eating what you grow. But if you want to optimize your time for work or recreation, I think you're better off shopping at the farmer's market (or Costco).

alex7777 wrote: "I would personally want some sort of the Dairy for my smoothies, and for Vitamin D..." Actually, coconut meat from a medium old coconut (so firm, but not tough) is excellent in smoothies, it gives a delicious creamy taste. Plus coconut fat isn't as bad as dairy fat, and there is some evidence it is not bad at all when not processed (ie hydrogenated). As for vitamin D, you're in Hawaii, your body makes its own in the sun. This milk thing is just another example of bringing your own hang-ups and preferences to the issue. If you want affordable, it's easy to give up dairy in Hawaii.
Milk is an affordable way to get nutrients in Hawaii. Coconuts don't have much nutritional value
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