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Old 07-25-2009, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Kihei, HI
12 posts, read 57,768 times
Reputation: 49

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I've only been living on Maui for a couple months, so I'm certainly no expert on the "real" Hawaii yet... but a few things being discussed here caught my attention.

I have noticed a certain provincial attitude from the locals... however, I have to say that I've observed that almost everywhere I've ever lived. Some examples:

Even my home town, a small town outside of Philly, was very closed to outsiders. New folks were excluded and treated as something to be wary of. The power base there was white (largely German descent), but they were definitely discriminatory against new folks of any color.

I also lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico for 18 years. ABQ isn't "closed" per se, but if you're not of Spanish descent (note: not Mexican descent -- indigenous locals get offended by being called Mexican and claim to trace their lineage back to Spain) you are largely excluded from gov't jobs, etc.. Prior to the last decade, many businesses which would have been beneficial to the economy were effectively blocked by the local governments. White people are still a minority in Albuquerque, and there is certainly some level of discrimination from many of the natives (but there you're a "gringo" not a Haole). The Spanish "good ol' boy" network still retains control over most of the power.

Vancouver, WA wasn't too bad, but it's primarily New Blood whites living there, so there's no extant old network to break into. Many people in Portland, OR, however, basically discriminate against and look down upon anyone who isn't a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth liberal.

So I think the one thing missing from the previous summation is that people are people, wherever you go. The provincial attitude I've observed in Hawaii does not strike me as substantially different than the attitude shown by Old Blood anywhere I've been. People like to feel they belong to an exclusive "club"; that's human nature. You see it in religions ("We're going to heaven, and they're not!"), in politics ("[Choose one: Republicans/Democrats] are stupid!"), and even in loyalty to sports teams (men sometimes physically fight over a statement like, "Your team sucks!")! Any wonder you would find the "club" mentality in citizens of a given area?

Personally, I just accept it for what it is. If someone is prejudiced against me for being white or being tall or whatever, I take it as an challenge to enlighten them that not all white people are... well, whatever it is they think that white people are. I've found that most everyone responds to genuine warmth, openness, respect, and basic human decency -- no matter whether they started out prejudiced or not. People are people, after all.

So, just my two cents on the matter, FWIW. As I said, I certainly don't have your extensive experience regarding Hawaii itself -- but I felt I had something to contribute to the discussion anyway, having had quite a bit of experience regarding the prejudice issue in a more universal sense.

Last edited by Pretzel Logic; 07-25-2009 at 08:05 AM..
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Was in Western New York but now in Hilo Hawaii
1,234 posts, read 4,574,488 times
Reputation: 454
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel Logic View Post
I've only been living on Maui for a couple months, so I'm certainly no expert on the "real" Hawaii yet... but a few things being discussed here caught my attention.

I have noticed a certain provincial attitude from the locals... however, I have to say that I've observed that almost everywhere I've ever lived. Some examples:

Even my home town, a small town outside of Philly, was very closed to outsiders. New folks were excluded and treated as something to be wary of. The power base there was white (largely German descent), but they were definitely discriminatory against new folks of any color.

I also lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico for 18 years. ABQ isn't "closed" per se, but if you're not of Spanish descent (note: not Mexican descent -- indigenous locals get offended by being called Mexican and claim to trace their lineage back to Spain) you are largely excluded from gov't jobs, etc.. Prior to the last decade, many businesses which would have been beneficial to the economy were effectively blocked by the local governments. White people are still a minority in Albuquerque, and there is certainly some level of discrimination from many of the natives (but there you're a "gringo" not a Haole). The Spanish "good ol' boy" network still retains control over most of the power.

Vancouver, WA wasn't too bad, but it's primarily New Blood whites living there, so there's no extant old network to break into. Many people in Portland, OR, however, basically discriminate against and look down upon anyone who isn't a rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth liberal.

So I think the one thing missing from the previous summation is that people are people, wherever you go. The provincial attitude I've observed in Hawaii does not strike me as substantially different than the attitude shown by Old Blood anywhere I've been. People like to feel they belong to an exclusive "club"; that's human nature. You see it in religions ("We're going to heaven, and they're not!"), in politics ("[Choose one: Republicans/Democrats] are stupid!"), and even in loyalty to sports teams (men sometimes physically fight over a statement like, "Your team sucks!")! Any wonder you would find the "club" mentality in citizens of a given area?

Personally, I just accept it for what it is. If someone is prejudiced against me for being white or being tall or whatever, I take it as an challenge to enlighten them that not all white people are... well, whatever it is they think that white people are. I've found that most everyone responds to genuine warmth, openness, respect, and basic human decency -- no matter whether they started out prejudiced or not. People are people, after all.

So, just my two cents on the matter, FWIW. As I said, I certainly don't have your extensive experience regarding Hawaii itself -- but I felt I had something to contribute to the discussion anyway, having had quite a bit of experience regarding the prejudice issue in a more universal sense.
Well said !

Also like the name
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Old 07-25-2009, 03:33 PM
 
53 posts, read 227,534 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzel Logic View Post
I have noticed a certain provincial attitude from the locals... however, I have to say that I've observed that almost everywhere I've ever lived.

The provincial attitude I've observed in Hawaii does not strike me as substantially different than the attitude shown by Old Blood anywhere I've been.

As I said, I certainly don't have your extensive experience regarding Hawaii itself -- but I felt I had something to contribute to the discussion anyway, having had quite a bit of experience regarding the prejudice issue in a more universal sense.
Agreed and very nicely said. I greatly appreciate your comments, and I will continue to be perfectly honest and candid here on all scores.

I too have experienced these same (what I would call) low-level racist or class-conscious sentiments in many of these same states or towns (places like Seattle, Phoenix, etc.), and you're absolutely right, its there, no bones about it! However, I submit that the flaw in your comparative assessment here is your focus on Maui (rather than Oahu) as being representative of Hawaii at-large. Its not.

There are many-many examples that I could give you to support the above assertion but I'll try to limit them two or three. First, anyone born and raised here on Oahu or anyone who has spent (say) 20-30 years here as I have will tell you that they've slowly lost most (or all) of their real friends to relocation over the years. For locals, the movement seems to be roughly split between the U.S. Mainland and the outer-islands (particularly Maui and Big Isle). I myself have lost more than a half-dozen decent, prized, local friends to Maui alone in the past ten years, and the fact is, the atmosphere (and people) there, are profoundly different than Oahu, although it is rapidly changing there as well.

If you were to acquaint yourself with a local person or family here on Oahu that had lived their entire life outer-island (i.e., Maui or Big Isle), but had recently been forced to relocate to Oahu, I suspect you would hear the very same thing (i.e., that Oahu and Maui or Oahu and Big Isle are WORLDS apart in terms of arrogance, classism and racism), and there are a couple of reasons for that, some of which are NOT so obvious.

If you were to spend some quality one-on-one time with some of these truly decent, prized, and "candid" local people that had lived outer-island like the ones I've known (and I'm talkin' true Hawaiians here, those with anywhere from 10-50% Hawaiian blood), you would likely learn from them (as I have) that:

1) "Asians" (not haoles), are their most reviled adversaries (i.e., where their bitterness truly resides), and that the entrenched racism present here on Oahu and the threatening economic equation that has developed in Hawaii on the whole, began with Asians.

2) The bulk of the public resistance here in Hawaii to native Hawaiian rights and native Hawaiian programs or private schools or political organizations or legislation comes from Asians (not haoles).

3) There are far fewer Asians living outer-island than here on Oahu.

So, in summary, I respectfully submit that when someone wants to conduct a legitimate (meaningful) comparison of classism or racial discrimination on the U.S. Mainland with that present here in Hawaii, they need to focus on the real cauldron (i.e., the population center of Oahu).

Thanks again and good luck to you!
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:30 PM
 
432 posts, read 1,197,666 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandalero View Post
3) There are far fewer Asians living outer-island than here on Oahu.


Well, that's not surprising, is it, when O`ahu has 80% of the state's population? I'm not sure that tells us very much all by itself.

Far more interesting, I think, is the relative percentage (not raw numbers) of various ethnicities. Seen in that way, the percentage of Asians on at least the Big Island and Kaua`i is much higher than on O`ahu.

I think that's much more telling; the dominant culture and ethos of the Big Island (part of the Kona-side's beef with the way things are done, btw) is rooted in Nisei plantation culture and "traditional" Chinese values, plus, in the first half of the 20th century the distinct influences of the Filipino in-migration.
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:06 PM
 
36 posts, read 234,700 times
Reputation: 49
Hawaii is a beautiful state. I lived in Oahu for 3 years, but sad to say dont move there unless you have lots of money saved and a substantial incoming income. I moved there to live close to my Family and to live with my mother since my Dad had just passed away. I brought with me my savings of $20, 000 and lots of credit cards. Owning or Renting is a nightmare. A $500.00-$800.00 2 bedrooom apartment on the Mainland would cost between $1,000.00 and $1,600.00 to rent in Honolulu, and we are talking about an apartment with no central air and small and it gets hot there. You can forget about buying a house unless you are willing to be stuck there for the rest of your life paying the mortgage. To get a decent house there would roughly cost in the Millions. Jobs there are not as well paid as you would think, considering the High standard of Living. I worked for a State Hospital and I was still using my credit cards to pay some of my bills since my savings was quickly depleted just paying rent and utilities. My electricity would easily go up to $ 200.00, this is with 2 TVs, 2 computers, Kitchen Appliances and 2 Fans but NO AC. When I finally moved to an apartment with a wall unit AC my Electricity would reach almost $400, compared to what Im paying now here on the Mainland, with central air, of $150-$175 during the summer. I moved back here to the Mainland (US) bankrupt. I believe that it was the worst move Ive ever made. I loved the Beaches and the Nature but the excitement wears out after a while. This is just my experience. A single person who has roommates may make the burden of paying Bills lighter, but they are very expensive and Jobs there dont pay as much as you would think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JIM GOUD
Do they offer social services in oaho such as food stamps-job opportunities-help in rental payments etc etc
Yes they do have Social Services, Food Stamps and Housing Assistance...and so on, But when I was there and was checking on the housing assistance they were not accepting new applications because the List of people waiting to get Housing assistance was so long. I dont know about it now since it was about 5 years ago. Their Welfare services are pretty much the same as the Mainland.

Last edited by MWCar; 07-25-2009 at 05:27 PM..
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:15 PM
 
36 posts, read 234,700 times
Reputation: 49
They have the best Childrens and Womens hospital though. My youngest son was born at 25 weeks and weighted 1 lb and 7 oz and was in the NICU(Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) for 10 weeks and the Doctors and Nurses took care of him until he was old enough for me to bring him home, and that I am thankful for from the bottom of my Heart. With out them I believe he would have died. Now my son is 3 yrs old Healthy, happy, active and thriving. I am thankful for the Doctors and Nurses at Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children, they are the BEST!!!
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:26 PM
 
432 posts, read 1,197,666 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWCar View Post
...I loved the Beaches and the Nature but the excitement wears out after a while.
This a very, very akamai statement that others should ponder.

What was novel and fun and exciting ceases being any of those things if the grind and expense for lots of folks of even a moderate standard of living is factored in.
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Old 07-25-2009, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Hawaii-Puna District
3,752 posts, read 11,458,340 times
Reputation: 2481
No air conditioning needed on East side (Hilo area) of Big Island. You want it colder? Move up to 2,000+ feet in elevation. Many homes in the higher elevations have fireplaces...
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:32 PM
 
53 posts, read 227,534 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by MWCar View Post
They have the best Childrens and Womens hospital though. My youngest son was born at 25 weeks and weighted 1 lb and 7 oz and was in the NICU(Neonatal Intensive Care Unit) for 10 weeks and the Doctors and Nurses took care of him until he was old enough for me to bring him home, and that I am thankful for from the bottom of my Heart. With out them I believe he would have died. Now my son is 3 yrs old Healthy, happy, active and thriving. I am thankful for the Doctors and Nurses at Kapiolani Medical Center for Women and Children, they are the BEST!!!
Nope, I respectfully disagree. You're talking here about "perceptions" vs. "reality" and what I would classify as local kine spin.

Two years ago, a colleague and VERY close (Asian) friend of mine, lost her beloved daughter here at Kapiolani Women's Medical Center in childbirth. I'll say that again, the grandmother (my friend), lost her daughter, while giving birth to her granddaughter, at the locally acclaimed "Kapiolani Women's Medical Center".

The delivering mother had several other biological children (i.e., she had given birth successfully several times before without a single hitch), yet she DIED in childbirth from what authorities at Kapiolani Medical Center said was "excessive bleeding" (i.e., hemorrhaging).

I respectfully submit to this audience that this kind of thing is UNHEARD OF in reputable, 21st Century America (i.e., it simply does not happen)! Maybe in the jungles of Panama or El Salvador or in the remote plains of Tanzania somewhere, but not in civilized, educated, well-trained America.

The grief-stricken grandmother retained an attorney, and together, they forced a formal investigation, but here in Hawaii, such investigations usually end in local-kine administrators, regulators and judges. In the end, nothing came of it. She simply lost her daughter and grand child.

Also, keep in mind that literally 70-80% of Hawaii's best doctors and surgeons have all left the state for higher ground in the past 24-months or so, and that means that the overall quality of staff (doctors and surgeons) at Kapiolani Medical Center is no exception. Most reputable (bonafide) physicians out here (i.e., true MDs, not PAs=physicians assistants or "medical assistants" with on-line medical degrees or graduates of Juan and Paco's Advanced School of Medicine in Manilla!), have had enough of the local kine micro-management and manipulation of their medical practices from fee structures to insurance billings, etc. And I'm talking here about Hawaii's precious "non-profit" HSMA (Hawaii Medical Services Association) that was recently highlighted in local newspapers for falling FAR behind Kaiser Permanente in total enrollment or membership, while awarding 4-6 of its top executives MILLIONS of dollars in bonuses. In fact, I think they (HMSA) have since tried to change their legal business name, in an effort to escape the soiled public reputation that they have deservedly earned out here. They're a bunch of charlatans, plain and simple.

So no, I don't think the esteemed Kapiolani Women's & Children's Medical Center of Honolulu is cause (in and of itself) to stay here in Hawaii. In fact, you (women and children) would probably get the same or better level of care at any run-of-the-mill hospital on the U.S. Mainland.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:44 PM
 
36 posts, read 234,700 times
Reputation: 49
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bandalero View Post
Nope, I respectfully disagree. You're talking here about "perceptions" vs. "reality" and what I would classify as local kine spin.

Two years ago, a colleague and VERY close (Asian) friend of mine, lost her beloved daughter here at Kapiolani Women's Medical Center in childbirth. I'll say that again, the grandmother (my friend), lost her daughter, while giving birth to her granddaughter, at the locally acclaimed "Kapiolani Women's Medical Center".

The delivering mother had several other biological children (i.e., she had given birth successfully several times before without a single hitch), yet she DIED in childbirth from what authorities at Kapiolani Medical Center said was "excessive bleeding" (i.e., hemorrhaging).

I respectfully submit to this audience that this kind of thing is UNHEARD OF in reputable, 21st Century America (i.e., it simply does not happen)! Maybe in the jungles of Panama or El Salvador or in the remote plains of Tanzania somewhere, but not in civilized, educated, well-trained America.

The grief-stricken grandmother retained an attorney, and together, they forced a formal investigation, but here in Hawaii, such investigations usually end in local-kine administrators, regulators and judges. In the end, nothing came of it. She simply lost her daughter and grand child.

Also, keep in mind that literally 70-80% of Hawaii's best doctors and surgeons have all left the state for higher ground in the past 24-months or so, and that means that the overall quality of staff (doctors and surgeons) at Kapiolani Medical Center is no exception. Most reputable (bonafide) physicians out here (i.e., true MDs, not PAs=physicians assistants or "medical assistants" with on-line medical degrees or graduates of Juan and Paco's Advanced School of Medicine in Manilla!), have had enough of the local kine micro-management and manipulation of their medical practices from fee structures to insurance billings, etc. And I'm talking here about Hawaii's precious "non-profit" HSMA (Hawaii Medical Services Association) that was recently highlighted in local newspapers for falling FAR behind Kaiser Permanente in total enrollment or membership, while awarding 4-6 of its top executives MILLIONS of dollars in bonuses. In fact, I think they (HMSA) have since tried to change their legal business name, in an effort to escape the soiled public reputation that they have deservedly earned out here. They're a bunch of charlatans, plain and simple.

So no, I don't think the esteemed Kapiolani Women's & Children's Medical Center of Honolulu is cause (in and of itself) to stay here in Hawaii. In fact, you (women and children) would probably get the same or better level of care at any run-of-the-mill hospital on the U.S. Mainland.
I am very sorry to hear that, my comment was merely based on my experience. As far as Im concerned they saved my son. But I do agree that while I was there I have heard several Nurses making negative comments about the Hospital and I will have to admit that while my son was there I held some fears. I was just so happy that I could bring my son home.

Women dying from childbirth is rare but it still happens especially if it is a C-section, in which it comes with risks related to anesthesia, infections and blood clots. Excessive bleeding is one of the leading causes of pregnancy-related death, and women with several previous C-sections are at especially high risk.


Again I am very sorry for the Death of your friends daughter and Grandchild, it is always heartbreaking to hear a mother and child loosing their life during an event that is supposed to be a joyous one. I at one point had fears that I would loose my life during Childbirth, I think every woman has, especially if it is the first pregnancy. I understand your Anger and disgusts towards the hospital and I would no doubt feel the same way if my son died.

BTW Im not a local, I lived there for 3 years then came back here to the Mainland.
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