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Old 05-14-2013, 06:05 PM
 
6,319 posts, read 4,712,471 times
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A lot, no many, people have addictions.

It might be booze, it might be cigs, a bad relationship, too much coffee.

Some people will get addicted at the drop of a hat, others will not.

Some cope with and control their addiction, others can not.

Regarding recovering alcoholics - AA doesn't like to publicise this but there are A LOT of alcoholics who go on to be able to use alcohol wisely - Drew Barrymore for one. Sometimes alcoholism is based in emotional pain and once that's treated, the "alcoholism" goes away.

Sometimes the alcoholic replaces booze with another addiction, like telling other alcoholics how to live.

My point is, it's very subjective and personal, a grey area, not black and white as AA would have us believe.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Up above the world so high!
45,264 posts, read 81,157,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
So circling back to the original question of this thread, wouldn't they have been alcoholics at birth? Meaning, if an alcoholic is a person who can't stop drinking then aren't they an alcoholic if they aren't drinking and they are an alcoholic if they never had a drink?
Asked and answered

A predisposition for something does not mean something will happen to every single person predisposed to it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:22 PM
 
43,012 posts, read 82,727,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
Excuse me, I know what the hell is keeping me sober and its not will power. You have no business whatsoever telling me or anyone else who is sober what keeps them sober. Especially if you are not an alcoholic yourself as you indicate below. Contrary to your faulty "belief system" will-power is what kept me drunk.
What is it then? God? Call it what you want. Atheists can overcome addiction.

Atheists do not have fault belief systems. They merely have a different one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
Any regular earth person can be an "addictive personality" type. Caffeine addiction or smoking are completely different than an illness like alcoholism. If I were dying of a malignant incurable tumor you would'nt walk up to me and say "Just use your will power and you can cure yourself !" If you did you would be considered a very callous person by most societal standards. I have an illness called alcoholism and I would appreciate it if you would desist from treating me like a weak willed derelict.
There's nothing regular about having an addictive personality. Don't talk to me like I know nothing about alcoholism. I found my father dead on the kitchen floor due to his alcoholism. If you're recovered, why would you view my comments as portraying you as week willed? Either you're not recovered, or you're arguing semantics because 12 step programs teach that strong will has nothing to do with recovery. I don't want to go into details but many more challenging things than alcoholism require sheer willpower. Any alcoholic who is no longer drinking has willpower whether they like the word or not. Finding the ability to resist is the very definition of will power. Where and how you find that ability is irrelevant to me. All that matters is successfully achieving the goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Is this an official definition?
It's my official definition. You asked our opinions. If you want an official definition, go ask someone official.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:44 PM
 
2,385 posts, read 3,476,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
So circling back to the original question of this thread, wouldn't they have been alcoholics at birth? Meaning, if an alcoholic is a person who can't stop drinking then aren't they an alcoholic if they aren't drinking and they are an alcoholic if they never had a drink?
You want a black and white answer. A yes or no answer. There isn't one.

There is not ONE gene that makes you an alcoholic, there are several, and there are varying degrees of alcoholism. Even in the DSM IV (the manual used to clinically diagnose alcoholics) has two separate categories for alcoholism, alcohol abuse vs. alcohol dependence. Some people drink but never abuse alcohol, some people abuse alcohol but never become dependent, and some reach dependency.

More or less, two things are needed to reach dependency. One is the genetic predisposition. The second is actual usage. You can carry the genes for alcoholism but never activate them if you don't drink.

What you're asking is would Picasso become a painter if he never picked up paints. No, he wouldn't. But the potential for him to become a painter is there.

Same with an alcoholic who have the genes wired towards predisposition. They're not an alcoholic until they start using. Once they start, then they become an alcoholic.

One more example, let's say a person has the potential to become 6 feet tall, they have the genes for it. But they are malnourished and not fed enough and never reach 6 feet tall. Are they 6 feet tall? No. But the potential was there.

Think of it like a recipe. If you're a potential alcoholic with alcoholic genes but never drink, you don't have the ingredients needed to create an alcoholic.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:52 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,073 posts, read 3,715,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
What is it then? God? Call it what you want. Atheists can overcome addiction.

Atheists do not have fault belief systems. They merely have a different one.
I know athiests who have recovered. They said they didn't use their own will-power. Your belief system is the one I find fault with because its based on mere opinion and judgements unsupported by evidence.


Quote:
There's nothing regular about having an addictive personality. Don't talk to me like I know nothing about alcoholism. I found my father dead on the kitchen floor due to his alcoholism. If you're recovered, why would you view my comments as portraying you as week willed? Either you're not recovered, or you're arguing semantics because 12 step programs teach that strong will has nothing to do with recovery. I don't want to go into details but many more challenging things than alcoholism require sheer willpower. Any alcoholic who is no longer drinking has willpower whether they like the word or not. Finding the ability to resist is the very definition of will power. Where and how you find that ability is irrelevant to me. All that matters is successfully achieving the goal.
You have my sympathy for your loss. Alcoholism is a killer disease.
I view your comments as condescending & judgemental because you merely parrot the ignorant response of most people in society whose bias causes them to think its a matter of will power when, in fact, it isin't. As far as semantics of 12 Step programs, I read the black not between the lines like you. The recovery in those programs is real and the fact that they do not agree with your rigid "belief system" doesn't make them any less effective. If it doesn't matter how others achieve recovery then why do you care if they do not agree with you that they don't use will power. Why does it matter to you that there are differing opinions on "How it Works ?" Let the readers of this thread decide what might work best for them instead of trying to ram your opinion down their throats. You called me out on my post which differed from yours. I did it a different way because I tried your way and it did not work and if I kept using my will-power I would have been another dead father on the floor.


Quote:
It's my official definition. You asked our opinions. If you want an official definition, go ask someone official.
He did.........
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:59 PM
 
43,012 posts, read 82,727,099 times
Reputation: 29997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
You have my sympathy for your loss. Alcoholism is a killer disease.
I view your comments as condescending & judgemental because you merely parrot the ignorant response of most people in society whose bias causes them to think its a matter of will power when, in fact, it isin't. As far as semantics of 12 Step programs, I read the black not between the lines like you. The recovery in those programs is real and the fact that they do not agree with your rigid "belief system" doesn't make them any less effective. If it doesn't matter how others achieve recovery then why do you care if they do not agree with you that they don't use will power. Why does it matter to you that there are differing opinions on "How it Works ?"
[/quote]
I'm speaking from experience. Will power is what has prevented me from becoming an alcoholic.

This isn't all about you and your experience. Other people have their experiences too.

Get the chip off of your shoulder. What's works for you is great. What works for me is great too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
Let the readers of this thread decide what might work best for them instead of trying to ram your opinion down their throats. You called me out on my post which differed from yours.
Look back in the thread. I didn't call you out. YOU took issue with my use of the term willpower. You called me out. You're ramming your opinion.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:05 PM
 
43,012 posts, read 82,727,099 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
He did.........
No, he didn't. He asked random people on the internet the following blanket question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles View Post
Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, right? But does it work the other way, If an alcoholic, then always has been an alcoholic? Meaning, some kids in third grade are alcoholics even though they won't have their first beer for ten years or so.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:09 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,073 posts, read 3,715,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes View Post
I'm speaking from experience. Will power is what has prevented me from becoming an alcoholic.

This isn't all about you and your experience. Other people have their experiences too.

Get the chip off of your shoulder. What's works for you is great. What works for me is great too.
Key phrase, "From becoming an alcoholic." I became one you didn't so what experience are you drawing from that qualifies you to address those who have become alcoholics ?

This thread is about alcoholism. As I stated, I read the black. If you want to start a thread on other people's experiences go for it. And if people disagree with you it doesn't mean they have "chips" on their shoulder, it just means they have a different opinion than yours. I like to hear other opinions, even yours.

I totally agree with your statement that what works for you is great and what works for me is great. In fact, my hat is off to you that you didn't have to become enslaved to the illness that few people ever recover from - alcoholism.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:14 PM
 
Location: The Lakes Region
3,073 posts, read 3,715,454 times
Reputation: 2329
Quote:
QUOTE=Hopes;29570709

Look back in the thread. I didn't call you out. YOU took issue with my use of the term willpower. You called me out. You're ramming your opinion.
See Post # 31
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:34 PM
 
43,012 posts, read 82,727,099 times
Reputation: 29997
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
Key phrase, "From becoming an alcoholic." I became one you didn't so what experience are you drawing from that qualifies you to address those who have become alcoholics ?
I only addressed you because you addressed me.

What would make you think you have the right to address people without expecting them to respond?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
This thread is about alcoholism. As I stated, I read the black. If you want to start a thread on other people's experiences go for it.
The OP didn't ask alcoholics. He asked anyone. I have every right to be here.

I have every right to an opinion. It's not like my life has not been touched by alcoholism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawporri View Post
I totally agree with your statement that what works for you is great and what works for me is great. In fact, my hat is off to you that you didn't have to become enslaved to the illness that few people ever recover from - alcoholism.
I can only hope that any AT RISK young people reading this thread heeds my warning. Alcohol is fire that shouldn't be messed with. It's like playing Russian roulette. It's entirely possible to avoid alcoholism. They just have to be strong in their early years when peer pressure is hard to resist and youth makes them stupidly think they are invincible.
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