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I believe some people a genetically pre-disposed to alcoholism. However, social influences can be the tipping point.
If you hang around friends that drink lightly and infrequently, you don't push yourself to the point where your body physically needs more alcohol. However, if your environment encourages more frequent or binge drinking, your body get pushed over the abyss.
...does that mean theat children of 4 and 5 will be enrolled in AA for the rest of their lives?
Nobody is enrolled into A.A. Some people think that they were sentenced to A.A., but in reality, it was a compassionate judge, PO, public defender, etc. that decided to offer the perpetrator of the law an opportunity to reform their behavior to one that is more socially acceptable by inducing the opportunity to at least get and stay sober along the way. Said perpetrator could have refused and said, "No. I will not go to A.A. Send me to jail please."
Being as you folks keep bringing up A.A., let me tell you what A.A. is; it's two alcoholics drinking a cup of coffee trying to find a way to get through the day sober... eventually finding a path to a useful and fullfilling life to the point that they no longer even want to drink booze to achieve a higher state of consciousness. It's a beggar showing another beggar where there's bread.
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Originally Posted by MissNM
If you hang around friends that drink lightly and infrequently, you don't push yourself to the point where your body physically needs more alcohol. However, if your environment encourages more frequent or binge drinking, your body get pushed over the abyss.
Sounds to me like you are describing the social drinker; He's having another drink. Social I. Perhaps a hard drinker has the capacity to let their environment control their drinking habits. Not so with the real alcoholic. The real alcoholic has two distinct symptoms; they can't control the stop once they start and they can't control the start once they're stopped. It's quite that simple.
Sounds to me like you are describing the social drinker; He's having another drink. Social I. Perhaps a hard drinker has the capacity to let their environment control their drinking habits. Not so with the real alcoholic. The real alcoholic has two distinct symptoms; they can't control the stop once they start and they can't control the start once they're stopped. It's quite that simple.
I think people who are pre-disposed to alcoholism can start as social drinkers and not physiologically have that switch flipped. I do believe that after a few binge sessions, the body can say "holy crap, I need this stuff," and the switch gets flipped.
I know a friend from 20 years ago that was a very light social drinker. Once exposed to a circle of friends that binged, something happened. The light drinker is now alcoholic. Meanwhile, the binging friends came out of the whole thing unscathed.
I think people who are pre-disposed to alcoholism can start as social drinkers and not physiologically have that switch flipped.
I disagree.
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The light drinker is now alcoholic. Meanwhile, the binging friends came out of the whole thing unscathed.
So the now alcoholic friend carried the genetic load, and the binging friends didn't. A person cannot become an alchoholic without the genetic predispostion.
Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, right? But does it work the other way, If an alcoholic, then always has been an alcoholic? Meaning, some kids in third grade are alcoholics even though they won't have their first beer for ten years or so.
No- you can't be addicted or dependent on something you've never had.
There are lots of factors that make you more likely to become addicted to something- anything, ie family history, depression, personality disorders, certain occupations etc, but alcoholism isn't a genetically inherited condition.
I think genetics play a part in the case of the full-blown alcoholic because nothing else comes close to describing the mental obsession component of alcoholism... that thing that keeps the alcoholic from just going off and becoming a teetotaler.
The alcoholic says to themself, "OK, so I know that if I ever drink booze again, I will be off and running, ruin my life and destroy some lives around me... so I won't drink, watch me now." But what happens with the real alcoholic is that their ego tells them, "That's right. You got it now. That's how the horse ate the cabbage. You're on top of it now." Then a week or a month or a day later, the alky says, "Wow. I've never drank Grey Goose before."
Whenever someone says that alcoholism is absolutely NOT genetic, answer us this riddle; The Scottish/Irishman was just perfecting the art of hard distilled liquor and they found themselves in the Appalachian Mountains. The Scot/Irish folks and a few Germans found themselves up against a bunch of Native Americans. Long story short, the Native Americans taught the Scot/Irish how to fight terrorist style and the Scot/Irish taught the Native Americans how to drink. The Scot/Irish, outnumbered ten to one, beat the Brits back to Europe and the Native Americans became bad alcoholics... to the tune of way beyond the typical 10% of their population.
So, why do cultures that have been around booze the longest, the Italians, the Jews, perhaps a few Greeks, etc, have the lowest incident of alcoholism? Because their alkies died off to the minimum 10%. Not so with the Native American and the American Eskimo. Cross-breeding in the European countries have blurred the lines but given time, the minimum 10% abnormal drinkers have remained. This all points to genetics. Some say drinking and abusing drugs is strictly a behavioral problem. Maybe so with some drugs, but let's not forget that booze is also food.
If not for genetics, then "Just Say No!" should have worked some 30 years ago. How's that working today?
Well, if alcoholism is some sort of brain chemistry thing, then that brain chemistry probably exists from birth. This as opposed to a learned or environmental cause.
I think it depends on a person's choices and what they're taught (as children) by their parents/family/community. So, let's say someone's brain chemistry results in that person being a risk taker - depending on that person's choices and what they're taught, they could either become someone who loves climbing mountains, snowboarding, paragliding, etc., or they could end up being someone who takes their risks by drinking a lot and/or doing drugs.
So in other words, while I think that we're born with the structure of our personalities put together, what we fill that structure with is based on individual choices and how we were nurtured. So no, I personally don't think that someone who becomes an alcoholic was always an alcoholic. I think it was their individual choices and/or their influences that lead them to choose a path that they may otherwise not have taken.
EDIT: Oops - quoted something from the first page and now we're on the eleventh...
Quote: McGowdog:
Whenever someone says that alcoholism is absolutely NOT genetic, answer us this riddle; The Scottish/Irishman was just perfecting the art of hard distilled liquor and they found themselves in the Appalachian Mountains. The Scot/Irish folks and a few Germans found themselves up against a bunch of Native Americans. Long story short, the Native Americans taught the Scot/Irish how to fight terrorist style and the Scot/Irish taught the Native Americans how to drink. The Scot/Irish, outnumbered ten to one, beat the Brits back to Europe and the Native Americans became bad alcoholics... to the tune of way beyond the typical 10% of their population.
So, why do cultures that have been around booze the longest, the Italians, the Jews, perhaps a few Greeks, etc, have the lowest incident of alcoholism? Because their alkies died off to the minimum 10%. Not so with the Native American and the American Eskimo. Cross-breeding in the European countries have blurred the lines but given time, the minimum 10% abnormal drinkers have remained. This all points to genetics. Some say drinking and abusing drugs is strictly a behavioral problem. Maybe so with some drugs, but let's not forget that booze is also food.
So, how do you answer Dog's riddle (above) and support your conclusion ?
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Quote Misfitbanana:
I think it depends on a person's choices and what they're taught (as children) by their parents/family/community. So, let's say someone's brain chemistry results in that person being a risk taker - depending on that person's choices and what they're taught, they could either become someone who loves climbing mountains, snowboarding, paragliding, etc., or they could end up being someone who takes their risks by drinking a lot and/or doing drugs.
So, how do you answer Dog's riddle (above) and support your conclusion ?
Basically, I think that alcoholism is a combination of environmental and genetic factors. Meaning that I do think environment can intercede with what someone may be predisposed to. This is supported by scientific evidence. Dog's riddle sounds more like anecdotal evidence to me.
Additionally, it looks like cultures that have been around alcohol a lot don't have less alcoholism because of the "alkies" dying off, but rather because their genes have likely mutated to be able to handle alcohol better. I'm guessing it's similar to lactose intolerance. Native Americans are pretty much all lactose intolerant, because milk wasn't a regular staple of their diet until fairly recently. Societies/cultures that have been exposed to milk now for thousands of years rarely have lactose intolerance problems.
Studies basically conclude that genetics is a large part of it, but that environmental factors also contribute. So the idea is basically, how do you identify those who have a genetic predisposition, and intercede in a successful manner to help make sure they don't become alcoholics? There could be future possible gene therapies to help keep people from becoming alcoholics (or possibly help them recover) and possible drugs that block the pleasurable aspects of drinking, but there could also be environmental ways to help influence people to stay away from alcohol. I know there are some people who purposefully avoid all alcohol because they know there's a history of alcoholism in their family - perhaps just being able to test for markers of alcoholism will help influence a lot of people to "just say no" (so to speak).
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