U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Health and Wellness
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-17-2016, 07:55 PM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
5,281 posts, read 4,562,922 times
Reputation: 13274

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
We had a 24 hour nurse assistant. The hospice was required in order to terminate active cancer treatment. When I attempted to switch hospice services, I received a threat to report me to Adult Protective Services.

So again, your brilliant ideas?
A threat from whom? If my mom was ready for hospice, and someone threatened me with calling APS, I would say "BRING IT ON!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-17-2016, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
27,489 posts, read 17,629,902 times
Reputation: 39957
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagemomma View Post
A threat from whom? If my mom was ready for hospice, and someone threatened me with calling APS, I would say "BRING IT ON!"
I


I think he didn't want to do the hospice, honestly I'm confused on what the specific problem is.
__________________
____________________________________________
My posts as a Mod will always be in red.
Be sure to review Terms of Service: TOS
And check this out: FAQ
Moderator: Relationships Forum / Hawaii Forum / Dogs
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-17-2016, 09:40 PM
 
Location: New York Area
13,412 posts, read 5,207,027 times
Reputation: 10758
Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626 View Post
Maybe, my husband's situation was different than most. After he was released from the hospital after his surgery, he had time to visit two different oncologists in their offices, and completely discuss and research various treatment options (heck, I even read medical research on-line about the different options). There was absolutely no pressure to make a rush decision even though it had been a "stage three" cancerous tumor. I believe that he started chemo three weeks later.

Maybe your mother just had a bad doctor or a doctor with a bad bedside manner.
The meat and potatoes were that we were told that we wouldn't be doing the right thing by my mother if we didn't go forward with chemo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by germaine2626 View Post
Regarding hospice & elder abuse. Your situation was very, very different than the experiences of my friends whose parents or other relatives went into hospice.

Maybe there was just something unusual about either the hospice providers or your mother's situation.


I'm sorry that happened to you and your family.
What happened was that after my mother had been on hospice for multiple months I began to question what was being done. After talking with the caregivers I learned to my surprise that she was being given Ensure when she was thirsty. This circumvented the convention against hooking her up with intravenous feeding. There was prior agreement not to feed intravenously and this turned into a long-term, sweet deal for the hospice provider. Ten months worth of payments in return for one visit a week by a barely skilled nurse who often didn't return calls.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 06:59 AM
 
11,316 posts, read 5,839,816 times
Reputation: 20989
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What happened was that after my mother had been on hospice for multiple months I began to question what was being done. After talking with the caregivers I learned to my surprise that she was being given Ensure when she was thirsty. This circumvented the convention against hooking her up with intravenous feeding. There was prior agreement not to feed intravenously and this turned into a long-term, sweet deal for the hospice provider. Ten months worth of payments in return for one visit a week by a barely skilled nurse who often didn't return calls.
This is an ethics issue. Personally, I'm fine with withholding liquid nutrition supplements from someone who can't feed themselves. I think euthanasia would be the more humane approach but since that mostly isn't allowed in the United States, allowing someone in those circumstances to starve to death is appropriate. If your personal ethics are that every life is sacred from the moment of conception to your last breath, withholding that Ensure is a sin and should be forbidden. It seems that our whole body of law around health care is built on this set of ethics and an irrational belief that people life forever. A well-crafted living will can protect you from some of that nonsense but sadly not all of it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 02:47 PM
 
Location: New York Area
13,412 posts, read 5,207,027 times
Reputation: 10758
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffD View Post
If your personal ethics are that every life is sacred from the moment of conception to your last breath, withholding that Ensure is a sin and should be forbidden. It seems that our whole body of law around health care is built on this set of ethics and an irrational belief that people life forever. A well-crafted living will can protect you from some of that nonsense but sadly not all of it.
When I went to see the "ethics committee" it was more like a boisterous kangaroo court. They tried not to let me get a word in edgewise.

I tried to talk and say that my mother and I had discussions since 1973, when my father died of cancer, about how to handle end of life. They cut me off by saying that the living will and showed that its wording applied only to rapidly terminal illnesses. Since the living will postdated those instructions it governed. My wife, who had been talking more regularly with my mother, tried to talk. They tried to shut her up, saying she had no standing.

I offered to put her under oath and take her testimony so reluctantly they let her talk. When my wife said that my mother told her she wanted it "over" they cut her off saying "I don't know about that." Their "ethics" are governed by Medicare reimbursements since unlike nursing homes, Medicare pays for hospice care.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 03:20 PM
 
15,385 posts, read 8,682,121 times
Reputation: 13770
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The scheduling starts almost immediately and the patient feels committed.
I had both a health care proxy and a POA. The problem is that if you don't do what hospice or the health care providers say they can, and will, report you to Adult Protective Services. Do you want to provide a defense on charges of "elder abuse"?
You, as her health care proxy, should have slowed the process down. That's your duty as her proxy. If she was "rushed" in to anything, you can partially blame yourself.

Did she have a DNR? My mom was the health care proxy for my great aunt, and at one point my mom had to decide if my aunt be given a feeding tube. I can't remember the particulars (I don't live near my mom, but talked to her on the phone daily at that time. But it was over 10 years ago), but I seem to remember that my mom could, because of the DNR, deny a feeding tube. But once that happened, she would be voiding the DNR. My mom chose to deny the tube, but my aunt ended up eating again on her own.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 03:23 PM
 
15,385 posts, read 8,682,121 times
Reputation: 13770
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
When I went to see the "ethics committee" it was more like a boisterous kangaroo court. They tried not to let me get a word in edgewise.

I tried to talk and say that my mother and I had discussions since 1973, when my father died of cancer, about how to handle end of life. They cut me off by saying that the living will and showed that its wording applied only to rapidly terminal illnesses. Since the living will postdated those instructions it governed. My wife, who had been talking more regularly with my mother, tried to talk. They tried to shut her up, saying she had no standing.

I offered to put her under oath and take her testimony so reluctantly they let her talk. When my wife said that my mother told her she wanted it "over" they cut her off saying "I don't know about that." Their "ethics" are governed by Medicare reimbursements since unlike nursing homes, Medicare pays for hospice care.
Without something in writing, they had no way of knowing if that was indeed your mom's wishes, or just the kids hoping to send mom off to the other side quickly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 03:24 PM
 
Location: New York Area
13,412 posts, read 5,207,027 times
Reputation: 10758
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
You, as her health care proxy, should have slowed the process down. That's your duty as her proxy. If she was "rushed" in to anything, you can partially blame yourself.
Nice, but unrealistic where the doctor is running from pillar to post between patients.

Did she have a DNR? [/quote]Of course. But the sticking point was that she had to stop breathing for that to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
My mom was the health care proxy for my great aunt, and at one point my mom had to decide if my aunt be given a feeding tube. I can't remember the particulars (I don't live near my mom, but talked to her on the phone daily at that time. But it was over 10 years ago), but I seem to remember that my mom could, because of the DNR, deny a feeding tube. But once that happened, she would be voiding the DNR. My mom chose to deny the tube, but my aunt ended up eating again on her own.
The function of a DNR is solely to prevent resuscitation in the event that breathing or heart functions stop.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 03:46 PM
 
13,010 posts, read 12,440,016 times
Reputation: 37270
But people do bounce back. My father had a brain bleed at 75. He had brain surgery, suffered at least one stroke afterwards while still in the hospital and then another two months in a physical therapy rehab facility. Today, he's 85, living on his own, goes dancing a couple times a week, and is otherwise active and sharp.

My aunt was in her 80s when she had a tumor on her heart. She had the surgery and it set her back, but she had a decent quality of life for the last few years.

The patient should get to decide how aggressive the treatment is, based on an accurate picture of their odds of recovery. If that costs a ton of money, then so be it. Single-payer is the way to go, probably, in the future.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-18-2016, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
27,489 posts, read 17,629,902 times
Reputation: 39957
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
What happened was that after my mother had been on hospice for multiple months I began to question what was being done. After talking with the caregivers I learned to my surprise that she was being given Ensure when she was thirsty. This circumvented the convention against hooking her up with intravenous feeding. There was prior agreement not to feed intravenously and this turned into a long-term, sweet deal for the hospice provider.

I'm confused. You are mad that they gave your Mom ensure to drink? What was okay? Water? Juice? Soup?

Do you feel drinking water circumvents the agreement against intravenous fluids?

I'm still not sure exactly what you want to have happen?

If you could decide how everything went, what would the scenario have looked like?
__________________
____________________________________________
My posts as a Mod will always be in red.
Be sure to review Terms of Service: TOS
And check this out: FAQ
Moderator: Relationships Forum / Hawaii Forum / Dogs
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Health and Wellness
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top