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Old 09-09-2016, 08:31 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,107,799 times
Reputation: 1679

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
I'm going to stop feeding posters with unusual fetishes. It's pointless and it's actually what they want.
Translated "I have no logical argument therefore I am going to give up and use personal attacks instead."

I have linked source after source showing cases of male doctors (specifically gynecologists) abusing women. I have shown that women are probably at least 100 times more likely to be abused by a male gynecologist than a female one. I have shown that the arguments presented on the other side aren't logically consistent.

All the other side has to offer is feelings. Nothing of substance. No statistics, no scientific sources and no well reasoned logical arguments.

All I want is an intelligent debate. Challenge my point with facts and reasoning. If you can't do that at least open your eyes and challenge your own dogmatic beliefs.

Last edited by Iaskwhy; 09-09-2016 at 08:39 PM..

 
Old 09-09-2016, 09:49 PM
 
222 posts, read 115,848 times
Reputation: 245
I don't really understand what your problem is with male obgyns, especially if you're not even a woman. I'm sure most of them went into the field for one or more these reasons: delivering babies is usually a happy experience, many of their patients are young and relatively healthy (unlike oncologists' or cardiologists' patients, for example), they had a close relative or friend die from a reproductive cancer so they want to diagnose and treat women to prevent that from happening to other women, they perform surgeries, and they care about helping half of the human population stay or get healthy. It's a very respectable branch of medicine. By the way, watch out for those male PCPs -- they also do the well woman exam/pap.
 
Old 09-09-2016, 11:34 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,107,799 times
Reputation: 1679
Quote:
Originally Posted by nja2016 View Post
I don't really understand what your problem is with male obgyns, especially if you're not even a woman. I'm sure most of them went into the field for one or more these reasons: delivering babies is usually a happy experience, many of their patients are young and relatively healthy (unlike oncologists' or cardiologists' patients, for example), they had a close relative or friend die from a reproductive cancer so they want to diagnose and treat women to prevent that from happening to other women, they perform surgeries, and they care about helping half of the human population stay or get healthy. It's a very respectable branch of medicine. By the way, watch out for those male PCPs -- they also do the well woman exam/pap.
Did you read any of the posts I wrote? I think I pretty clearly state what my problem is with them. So because I am a man I don't get to have an opinion on the subject?

Let me ask you this, what evidence would I have to put forward for you to change your mind? What percent of them would have to abuse women or view their patients in a sexual manner? I want a number. Otherwise your mind is made up and your beliefs are dogmatic, in which case I am wasting my time.

I will tell you what would change my mind.

1) Prove that male gynecologists or male doctors that perform intimate exams on women are equally or less likely to sexually abuse, sexually assault or sexually mistreat patients than female doctors are.

2) Prove that male gynecologists or male doctors that perform intimate exams on women are equally or less likely to have sexual feelings or urges for their patients than female doctors are.

3) Prove that male gynecologists or male doctors that perform intimate exams on women are equally or less likely to have consensual sexual relations with their former patients than female doctors are.


If anyone in this thread can put forth reasonable evidence for all of the above criteria, I will be happy to announce that I was wrong and never speak on this subject again.
 
Old 09-11-2016, 05:15 AM
 
3,431 posts, read 2,749,487 times
Reputation: 4111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post
Did you read any of the posts I wrote? I think I pretty clearly state what my problem is with them. So because I am a man I don't get to have an opinion on the subject?
Why is your opinion going to carry more weight than a woman patient's? It doesn't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post

Let me ask you this, what evidence would I have to put forward for you to change your mind? What percent of them would have to abuse women or view their patients in a sexual manner? I want a number. Otherwise your mind is made up and your beliefs are dogmatic, in which case I am wasting my time.
"Dogmatic," or based on experience?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post

I will tell you what would change my mind.

1) Prove that male gynecologists or male doctors that perform intimate exams on women are equally or less likely to sexually abuse, sexually assault or sexually mistreat patients than female doctors are.

2) Prove that male gynecologists or male doctors that perform intimate exams on women are equally or less likely to have sexual feelings or urges for their patients than female doctors are.

3) Prove that male gynecologists or male doctors that perform intimate exams on women are equally or less likely to have consensual sexual relations with their former patients than female doctors are.
1) and 2) have been answered with loads of logical info over several pages in this thread. Go back and reread if it didn't sink in the first time. As for 3) are you saying there are male OBGYNs who have had consensual sexual relationships with former patients? Is that a real assertion that you actually just made? Where's *your* proof?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post
If anyone in this thread can put forth reasonable evidence for all of the above criteria, I will be happy to announce that I was wrong and never speak on this subject again.
You're going to keep speaking on the subject, no matter what anyone else says. We know why... and so do you.
 
Old 09-11-2016, 05:29 AM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,370 posts, read 25,573,172 times
Reputation: 19641
I work in healthcare and know a lot of Doctors. Everyone has their own preference on what makes a good Doctor. Most of the OBGYNs that are talked up the most around here happen to be men. Women like going to these Doctors. We also have women OBGYN's and I seldom here anyone talking them up. One male doctor that I know well is loved by just about everyone. He has a beautiful wife and she is a Doctor as well. Yes he sees women all day long. I think he is more into his car collection than thinking about banging a patient. I mention that because earlier in this thread someone brought up the idea that male OBGYN's like the discipline because they get to look at women all day long. I don't see that with these guys although I doubt any of them are going to say anything about it.

I will tell you about Male Doctors. About five years ago I was in the Doctors Lounge in our Surgery department. Maybe a half dozen Doctors were there. They were talking about their office staff and comparing the hot women that worked for them. While I was not part of the discussion, listening you had the idea that these guys either played around with the help or at least thought about it often. While there another Doctor walked in and someone asked how his new girl was. He talked about her and then the question asked by another Doctor, "When you are done with her, let me have her in my office so I can try her out." You can not make this stuff up, and yes, as a guy I was thinking how fast could I finish medical school and get a Doctors office of my own. LOL
 
Old 09-11-2016, 01:09 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,107,799 times
Reputation: 1679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
Why is your opinion going to carry more weight than a woman patient's? It doesn't.
That's nonsense. So a male doctors opinion should carry less weight than a female doctors opinion on female issues, right?

Quote:
"Dogmatic," or based on experience?
Based on all the nonsense you and others have said in this thread.

Quote:


1) and 2) have been answered with loads of logical info over several pages in this thread. Go back and reread if it didn't sink in the first time. As for 3) are you saying there are male OBGYNs who have had consensual sexual relationships with former patients? Is that a real assertion that you actually just made? Where's *your* proof?



You're going to keep speaking on the subject, no matter what anyone else says. We know why... and so do you.
What are you talking about? I proved that 1 and 2 are ABSOLUTELY not true. Again, you would have to show me dozens of cases where a female obgyn sexually abused a female patient. !What you are saying right now illustrates dogmatic thinking. I will prove number 3 when you disprove numbers 1 and 2 through facts and statistics and not feelings.

Last edited by Iaskwhy; 09-11-2016 at 01:18 PM..
 
Old 09-11-2016, 08:13 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
3,996 posts, read 1,774,084 times
Reputation: 13784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post
"The AJC obtained and analyzed more than 100,000 disciplinary documents and other records from across the country to find cases that may have involved sexual misconduct. Then reporters identified more than 3,100 doctors who were publicly disciplined since Jan. 1, 1999 after being accused of sexual infractions. More than 2,400 were sanctioned for violations that clearly involved patients. The rest were disciplined for sexual harassment of employees or for crimes such as child pornography, public indecency or sexual assault.

Yet many, if not most, cases of physician sexual misconduct remain hidden. The AJC investigation discovered that state boards and hospitals handle some cases secretly. In other cases, medical boards remove once-public orders from their websites or issue documents that cloak sexual misconduct in vague language.

When cases do come to the publicís attention, they are often brushed off by the medical establishment as freakishly rare. While the vast majority of the nationís 900,000 doctors do not sexually abuse patients, the AJC found the phenomenon is akin to the priest scandal: It doesnít necessarily happen every day, but it happens far more often than anyone has acknowledged."

http://doctors.ajc.com/doctors_sex_a..._microsite_nav
What if I were to tell you that I fully acknowledge that the vast majority of cases involving sexual misconduct were perpetrated by male providers?

Because I do. There is no argument there; not just in my opinion, thats based on factual & statistical evidence.

Additionally; I believe you are correct in saying that many women do not understand the male brain. We don't. Personally; I believe that saying "Any man is going to be aroused by an attractive female laying exposed on a table" is giving TOO MUCH credit to most men (more like they could be aroused by any very ordinary woman laying exposed on a table).

Add to that the fact that my very first experience of a pelvic exam at age 17 was absolutely "wrong" & left me feeling violated ...

... What if I were to now tell you that DESPITE all this I still prefer my own male OBGYN to any female OBGYN I've ever had?

I have very few "hangups". I am aware of the risk & I'm willing to take it as my OBGYN is the best doctor I have ever seen in my life. And I've seen A LOT of doctors; I've had 11 kids, 2 miscairrages & 4 D&C's. I've been in those stirrups more times than I can count.

I am not challenging you; I'm actually in agreement with you but I what I want to know is: Is the frustration that I sense from you due to the fact that many women here are oblivious to the potential?

That they can't see the wolf for the sheepskin?

Do you think I'm weird in that I'm not afraid of the wolf? Or is that an additional frustration too?
 
Old 09-11-2016, 09:52 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,107,799 times
Reputation: 1679
Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
What if I were to tell you that I fully acknowledge that the vast majority of cases involving sexual misconduct were perpetrated by male providers?

Because I do. There is no argument there; not just in my opinion, thats based on factual & statistical evidence.

Additionally; I believe you are correct in saying that many women do not understand the male brain. We don't. Personally; I believe that saying "Any man is going to be aroused by an attractive female laying exposed on a table" is giving TOO MUCH credit to most men (more like they could be aroused by any very ordinary woman laying exposed on a table).

Add to that the fact that my very first experience of a pelvic exam at age 17 was absolutely "wrong" & left me feeling violated ...

... What if I were to now tell you that DESPITE all this I still prefer my own male OBGYN to any female OBGYN I've ever had?

I have very few "hangups". I am aware of the risk & I'm willing to take it as my OBGYN is the best doctor I have ever seen in my life. And I've seen A LOT of doctors; I've had 11 kids, 2 miscairrages & 4 D&C's. I've been in those stirrups more times than I can count.

I am not challenging you; I'm actually in agreement with you but I what I want to know is: Is the frustration that I sense from you due to the fact that many women here are oblivious to the potential?

That they can't see the wolf for the sheepskin?

Do you think I'm weird in that I'm not afraid of the wolf? Or is that an additional frustration too?
Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. The reason that I get frustrated about this issue is that so many people, male and female, are oblivious to everything that I mentioned. Worse than that, they hold dogmatic views regarding this subject. They think that doctors are godlike, not human and incapable of human emotion and feelings. So even when they are confronted with evidence that proves their positions are factually wrong they won't admit it. They would rather reject fact and hold onto their deeply held beliefs.

I am only here for the logical argument. That's all. Once you accept the facts and risks of the situation it is entirely up to you to live your life the way you want to. It is none of my business. I wouldn't feel right judging you based on that alone, I don't know enough about you and your other beliefs to say whether you are weird or not for your decision.

Last edited by Iaskwhy; 09-11-2016 at 10:01 PM..
 
Old 09-12-2016, 04:22 PM
 
3,431 posts, read 2,749,487 times
Reputation: 4111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy View Post
Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. The reason that I get frustrated about this issue is that so many people, male and female, are oblivious to everything that I mentioned. Worse than that, they hold dogmatic views regarding this subject. They think that doctors are godlike, not human and incapable of human emotion and feelings. So even when they are confronted with evidence that proves their positions are factually wrong they won't admit it. They would rather reject fact and hold onto their deeply held beliefs.

I am only here for the logical argument. That's all. Once you accept the facts and risks of the situation it is entirely up to you to live your life the way you want to. It is none of my business. I wouldn't feel right judging you based on that alone, I don't know enough about you and your other beliefs to say whether you are weird or not for your decision.
Your "logic" is that male OBGYNs (and other physicians, apparently, since a regular GP can do a pap smear too) are all, without exception, fetishists who are in the career because it's how they get their rocks off...that's what you've been arguing for days... without stats to demonstrate the fetish connection. And strangely enough, you also argue that women doctors are exempt from your fetish theory, due to lack of stats to prove a connection. Odd, that.
 
Old 09-12-2016, 04:31 PM
 
1,770 posts, read 1,107,799 times
Reputation: 1679
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottawa2011 View Post
Your "logic" is that male OBGYNs (and other physicians, apparently, since a regular GP can do a pap smear too) are all, without exception, fetishists who are in the career because it's how they get their rocks off...that's what you've been arguing for days... without stats to demonstrate the fetish connection. And strangely enough, you also argue that women doctors are exempt from your fetish theory, due to lack of stats to prove a connection. Odd, that.
Please provide links to where I said such things. While you are at it, provide links that back up your insane points that male gynecologists sexually abuse patients at the same rates as female ones. Otherwise, it is clear that you really have no interest in a logical discussion.

I just read through the whole thread again. I didn't find any cases where I said any of the nonsense you are saying. I did find lots of cases of me providing you with examples and statistics backing my points and you ignoring them because your argument isn't based in logic or reason.

Last edited by Iaskwhy; 09-12-2016 at 04:49 PM..
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