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Iaskwhy, what is it you are trying to accomplish? The women here are not stupid. They know that there are perverts in this world, including in the medical profession. Nobody has argued that there haven't been more male GYN perverts than female GYN perverts. They know this just as they know the chances of being a victim of one is astonishingly small. They know what and who they are comfortable with and they make their medical provider choices accordingly. That you personally think the risk is too high for a woman to see a male GYN is your prerogative, but it is not your choice to make for others. This is no different than the women here can't choose whether you see a female or male urologist.
I find enjoyment in logical discussions and I like to point out people's irrationality. I like to make people question their deeply held irrational beliefs.
I never said you weren't free to choose your own providers. I would like to see statistics and sources backing your claims.
Yes, as I mentioned previously I have seen breast and pelvic exams done by gynecologists and I would be willing to bet that I know more about what they are looking for and examining than you do.
If you want statistics, go to Rainn.org. They compile data from various sources, including the Department of Justice. 55% of sexual assaults happen at or near the home. 15% are in an open public place. 12% are at or near a relative's home. 10% are in enclosed public places, like parking lots or garages. 8% are in schools.
Doctor's offices, regardless of specialty, are not on that list. It does happen though and it's terrible, but I'm not going to live in fear that my doctor will assault me given the very small likelihood that it would ever happen. My doctor also has a female nurse in the room whenever he does any type of exam where I would be exposed for any amount of time.
Your main argument is that men see an attractive women and can't help but think of having sex with them. I don't agree with you, but it's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Even if that was the case, that doesn't mean they will act on it and do something inappropriate/illegal. Can I say with 100% certainty that none of my providers have ever thought me of in a sexual way? No, I can't. I can, however, say with 100% certainty that none of my providers, male or female, have ever acted inappropriately with me. And I've had 3 different male OBGYNs, which I would guess is probably on the higher end for most women.
And as far as you being more familiar with breast and pelvic exams than me, a woman? Unless you are a medical professional trained in performing both exams, I'm going to call your bluff (I would also find it very interesting if you were familiar with/had done these exams on women before given your staunch disagreement with women seeing male OBGYNs). I've had dozens of pelvic exams and breast exams in my life, and I'm not even that old. My providers have always explained what they were doing and what they were looking during every single exam. I'm sure not all providers do, but mine have.
I find enjoyment in logical discussions and I like to point out people's irrationality. I like to make people question their deeply held irrational beliefs.
But HOW and WHY are my beliefs irrational? Explain how me choosing a male OBGYN is irrational. I know you'll come back with your 1%-3% of male providers, and probably more, have committed these types of crimes. Okay, fine. Like I said earlier, it happens and it's terrible. However, teachers commit these same types of crimes. Coaches commit these crimes. Your neighbor or your friend or my someone I'm in a relationship with could commit these types of crimes. Someone doesn't have more of a likelihood of committing these types of crimes if they are an OBGYN or doctor. Being a doctor doesn't just tip someone over the edge and make them commit sexual assault when they wouldn't have otherwise.
Everything we do every single second of every day is a risk if you look at it the right way. Driving to work is a risk because I could get into an accident. It doesn't mean I'm going to hide at home and never drive. It means I'm going to wear my seat belt, not talk on the phone, drive the speed limit, etc. I do what I can to minimize my risk. And seeing a male provider is a risk I'm willing to take given that I ensure he is licensed, he has no previous complaints, and that I trust my instincts.
Exactly, you hit the nail on the head. The reason that I get frustrated about this issue is that so many people, male and female, are oblivious to everything that I mentioned. Worse than that, they hold dogmatic views regarding this subject. They think that doctors are godlike, not human and incapable of human emotion and feelings. So even when they are confronted with evidence that proves their positions are factually wrong they won't admit it. They would rather reject fact and hold onto their deeply held beliefs.
I am only here for the logical argument. That's all. Once you accept the facts and risks of the situation it is entirely up to you to live your life the way you want to. It is none of my business. I wouldn't feel right judging you based on that alone, I don't know enough about you and your other beliefs to say whether you are weird or not for your decision.
Gotcha.
I realize it's frustrating. The belief that the female brain & the male brain are NOT the same is not a very popular one these days (& I expect to be dodging some daggers now just for saying that).
But something being "popular" does not make it true. They ARE different; my brain is sexually more female than my vagina even is.
Your going to be wearing your keyboard out trying to convince women of a very simple truth: Every woman that enters a man's feild of vision is immediatly graded on a scale of "I'd nail that" (oh I hate that term) VS "Nope".
Any other interaction that takes place after that is preceded by that initial impression; like it or not. (pardon me while I start ducking )
I am a physicist, I am well aware of absolute and relative values, but thanks for the lecture. It completely depends on what you feel is abuse.
Shouldn't male doctors not work on attractive women then? After all, wouldn't it be hard to remain objective when you want to have sex with your patient?
There are about 38000 gynecologists in the US. About 52% of practicing gynecologists are female. That leaves 18,200 male gynecologists. I have posted links to at least 50 male gynecologists that were mostly serial abusers. I would estimate that the actual number of abusers is at least 10 times higher than this number given how rare it probably is for abuse to be reported. At least 500 abusers out of 18,200 male gynecologists. That means that 2.75% of male gynecologists have abused someone according to my estimate. I don't see that as a incredibly low risk of going to an abuser. Even if only 200 male gynecologists are abusers that still means that more than 1% are.
It's laughable that you somehow think that this doctor did something noble because "he couldn't stand taking care of men". That's a terribly sick thing for a doctor to say.
The amount of nonsense you have spewed in this thread is quite impressive. Bravo...
You state you are a physicist and you also state you have personally witnessed gynecological exams and have a better understanding of what the physician is looking for than a woman who has actually undergone these exams???
Where exactly did you train as a "physicist" that you were asked into exam rooms to witness these procedures??
What part of your undergraduate or graduate training as a physicist involved anatomy and physiology??
You keep making this ridiculous refrain about male doctors wanting to have sex with every female patient they see??? Talk about irrational...
I am a male...I have performed pelvic exams on women, I never once wanted to have "sex" with any patient I was interacting with in such a manner....there is really nothing sexy about a speculum...and I can absolutely guarantee I know much more about these procedures than you....
Why limit your irrational rant to Gynecology?
You are aware that physicians, PA's, NP's see female patients in all specialties right? Roughly about 1/2 our patients believe it or not:roll eyes:
You are aware we often see these same patients in the nude in every single specialty.....guess males shouldn't practice medicine period according to your warped and irrational sense of how male providers view female patients
What's laughable is your argument about poking holes in irrational beliefs when the crux of your argument is the most irrational of all...
The amount of nonsense you have spewed in this thread is quite impressive. Bravo...
You state you are a physicist and you also state you have personally witnessed gynecological exams and have a better understanding of what the physician is looking for than a woman who has actually undergone these exams???
Where exactly did you train as a "physicist" that you were asked into exam rooms to witness these procedures??
What part of your undergraduate or graduate training as a physicist involved anatomy and physiology??
You keep making this ridiculous refrain about male doctors wanting to have sex with every female patient they see??? Talk about irrational...
I am a male...I have performed pelvic exams on women, I never once wanted to have "sex" with any patient I was interacting with in such a manner....there is really nothing sexy about a speculum...and I can absolutely guarantee I know much more about these procedures than you....
Why limit your irrational rant to Gynecology?
You are aware that physicians, PA's, NP's see female patients in all specialties right? Roughly about 1/2 our patients believe it or not:roll eyes:
You are aware we often see these same patients in the nude in every single specialty.....guess males shouldn't practice medicine period according to your warped and irrational sense of how male providers view female patients
What's laughable is your argument about poking holes in irrational beliefs when the crux of your argument is the most irrational of all...
What a surprise! You didn't even attempt to prove any of my arguments wrong. No way! Shocker. In addition to that, you put words in my mouth I never even said! Fantastic logical arguments!
I realize it's frustrating. The belief that the female brain & the male brain are NOT the same is not a very popular one these days (& I expect to be dodging some daggers now just for saying that).
But something being "popular" does not make it true. They ARE different; my brain is sexually more female than my vagina even is.
Your going to be wearing your keyboard out trying to convince women of a very simple truth: Every woman that enters a man's feild of vision is immediatly graded on a scale of "I'd nail that" (oh I hate that term) VS "Nope".
Any other interaction that takes place after that is preceded by that initial impression; like it or not. (pardon me while I start ducking )
I completely agree! Well said. I have done the bolded part to every single woman I have ever met. It's not like I do it on purpose. It's not that I don't respect them as people, it's part of my biology. I can't help it. No, straight men that are even remotely interested in sex can help it. It's the reason that there are 7 billion people on the planet.
But HOW and WHY are my beliefs irrational? Explain how me choosing a male OBGYN is irrational. I know you'll come back with your 1%-3% of male providers, and probably more, have committed these types of crimes. Okay, fine. Like I said earlier, it happens and it's terrible. However, teachers commit these same types of crimes. Coaches commit these crimes. Your neighbor or your friend or my someone I'm in a relationship with could commit these types of crimes. Someone doesn't have more of a likelihood of committing these types of crimes if they are an OBGYN or doctor. Being a doctor doesn't just tip someone over the edge and make them commit sexual assault when they wouldn't have otherwise.
Everything we do every single second of every day is a risk if you look at it the right way. Driving to work is a risk because I could get into an accident. It doesn't mean I'm going to hide at home and never drive. It means I'm going to wear my seat belt, not talk on the phone, drive the speed limit, etc. I do what I can to minimize my risk. And seeing a male provider is a risk I'm willing to take given that I ensure he is licensed, he has no previous complaints, and that I trust my instincts.
I posted this before, but here it is again, just for you.
If a women has a choice between a female doctor and a male doctor to treat an issue in a sensitive area, why on earth should they logically choose
1) The doctor that doesn't have the same organs as them to allow them to understand what having these parts feels like.
2) The doctor that is FAR more likely to be sexually attracted to the patient and have inappropriate thoughts about the patient.
3) The doctor that is FAR more likely to do something inappropriate such as sexual assault or something else illegal to the patient.
4) The doctor that is most likely going to need to have another person, a female nurse, in the room in order to make sure they don't do something weird or creepy.
I am a physicist, I am well aware of absolute and relative values, but thanks for the lecture. It completely depends on what you feel is abuse.
Shouldn't male doctors not work on attractive women then? After all, wouldn't it be hard to remain objective when you want to have sex with your patient?
There are about 38000 gynecologists in the US. About 52% of practicing gynecologists are female. That leaves 18,200 male gynecologists. I have posted links to at least 50 male gynecologists that were mostly serial abusers. I would estimate that the actual number of abusers is at least 10 times higher than this number given how rare it probably is for abuse to be reported. At least 500 abusers out of 18,200 male gynecologists. That means that 2.75% of male gynecologists have abused someone according to my estimate. I don't see that as a incredibly low risk of going to an abuser. Even if only 200 male gynecologists are abusers that still means that more than 1% are.
It's laughable that you somehow think that this doctor did something noble because "he couldn't stand taking care of men". That's a terribly sick thing for a doctor to say.
So you really think that these female ob/gyns could take up the slack if all women decided they were crazy to see a male doctor - every female doctor would have to double her caseload. Seriously? I mean YOU think they are crazy to see a male doctor...maybe they are even "loose" women hoping for something sexual with the doc while they're in stirrups, no? If we want to satisfy YOUR fears, then there will be a very long wait for all these women to be served...by women. Give us all a practical solution, will you? Also consider women can't travel unlimited distances to get to a female, etc., etc.
I posted this before, but here it is again, just for you.
If a women has a choice between a female doctor and a male doctor to treat an issue in a sensitive area, why on earth should they logically choose
1) The doctor that doesn't have the same organs as them to allow them to understand what having these parts feels like.
2) The doctor that is FAR more likely to be sexually attracted to the patient and have inappropriate thoughts about the patient.
3) The doctor that is FAR more likely to do something inappropriate such as sexual assault or something else illegal to the patient.
4) The doctor that is most likely going to need to have another person, a female nurse, in the room in order to make sure they don't do something weird or creepy.
See the comment from the (male) ER doc TheTracker:
"I'm firmly pro-chaperone. It protects the physician. Some patients are crazy. Not a little bit crazy, REALLY crazy. And they will lie and make wild accusations. That is why the chaperone is there. I use a chaperone for ALL "bathing suit" exams -- every rectal, every pelvic, every exam of breasts or testicles, every time."
The chaperone protects both the doctor and the patient.
For OB/GYN docs, the person who is present as the chaperone usually assists in doing the exam and procedures. She doesn't just stand there and stare at the patient.
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