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Old 08-12-2016, 05:29 PM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,874,843 times
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The pain and suffering of today is caused by prolonged and torturous medical "care."

If you get sick, don't get treated. Nature will take care of it, quicker and with less pain than if you get treatment. And you don't need the government's "permission" to not get treatment.
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Old 08-12-2016, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,346,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
The pain and suffering of today is caused by prolonged and torturous medical "care."

If you get sick, don't get treated. Nature will take care of it, quicker and with less pain than if you get treatment. And you don't need the government's "permission" to not get treatment.
This reminds me of what my cousin went through when she was dying of Cancer. She had breast Cancer eleven years prior. She went through a mastectomy and radiation and into remission. Then the Cancer returned so rapidly and severely there was no hope of her survival. It metastasized throughout her body very quickly yet the doctors gave her the option of more radiation and she took it.

She was so sick and weak she had to be hospitalized. There they gave her test after test. I remember calling her at 11:00 pm when I knew she would be awake since she was a night owl. Her daughter answered the phone and told me they had taken her down for and MRI or something of the sort. I asked why are they doing that so late? She told me they were giving her all kinds of blood tests, MRI's, CAT scans, anything you can think of.

I was horrified. Why? The poor woman was dying? Why couldn't they let her die in peace? I didn't know why this was happening. Did she want it? Did the family? No one would tell me. I talked to my other cousin, her brother but they had kept him in the dark. He didn't approve either. She finally did die in the hospital. I thought it was the most horrible thing.

My friend in Portland who had signed up for assisted suicide died before she had the opportunity to take the meds but she died in a very peaceful, caring environment in hospice. She just slipped away peacefully during the night. I was there just the day before holding her hand. They had given me the option to stay overnight in her room with her the night before. I had to let my boss know so I could get the time off and go home to make arrangements for someone to take care of the cat so I couldn't remain that day.

She had no family but she had the hospice people there watching over her.

I would never want to go what my cousin went through. I hope my end will be something like my friend's.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Southern California
29,267 posts, read 16,612,883 times
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Well, you know who benefitted from all those tests.

Reminds me of when my father was getting close to his end, 3 different cardio docs came to my sister and I wanting to give him a pacemaker....we said NO NO NO. You know who would have beneffited. Makes me want to scream.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Lakewood OH
21,695 posts, read 28,346,059 times
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Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Well, you know who benefited from all those tests.

Reminds me of when my father was getting close to his end, 3 different cardio docs came to my sister and I wanting to give him a pacemaker....we said NO NO NO. You know who would have benefited. Makes me want to scream.
You bet I do. I have a feeling they talked the family into it. That's why the family kept her brother away. He would have put up a big stink but they wouldn't let him have any say in the matter. I think the hospital just used her as a money pot from Medicare and an experimental guinea pig for their own purposes.

I was glad my friend had the option to choose whether or not she should go through one more round of chemo. Her doctor was honest with her and she accepted it. She figured her time was up so that was that. People often mistake these radical measures for "hope" when they are really meaningless. I wish my dear cousin had realized that and had refused all the misery they put her through.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:42 PM
 
10,004 posts, read 11,093,719 times
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I've had many meetings with myself
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Living near our Nation's Capitol since 2010
2,218 posts, read 3,441,566 times
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I absolutely would opt out. It is sort of odd to see this particular thread today. Someone very close to me passed away today after an absolutely brutal and hideous illness. She suffered more than any human should have to suffer. Finally, she went to hospice, but only after months of excruciating and needless suffering. Hospice does not get involved til the near end. The suffering that preceded it was unimaginable.

I will never subject myself to that sort of ending. All dignity, all hope, all sense of self is lost in these cases. Of course, I recognize that everyone needs to make that decision for themselves. For me, it is a no-brainer. Regardless of what the "state" thought, I would find a way to end it before I became a suffering shadow of my self.

Nobody has to agree with me, but if you have ever seen firsthand the kind of death I saw, you might change your mind.
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Old 08-12-2016, 07:59 PM
 
Location: colorado springs, CO
9,512 posts, read 6,040,194 times
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Right now I'd have to say NO.

Who am I to say when my purpose here is done?

I didn't bring myself here...it's not up to me to say when I leave here either. I feel like I would be selfish in a way to say "Well; I got out everything from here that I'M going to get so... I'm out...!"
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Old 08-12-2016, 08:00 PM
 
3,423 posts, read 4,342,750 times
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The personal temperament and "threshold" for tolerating illness really seem to influence the decision, from what I've seen and heard.

Some people have devastating disabilities and want to continue living despite it. Some severely ill people, despite a terminal diagnosis, still want to try any and every experimental treatment available that will prolong their lives, even a bit.

Other people have taken the path of assisted dying for some surprising reasons, even for non-terminal conditions. They maintain that it's to relieve intolerable suffering. "Intolerable" seems to be largely just subjective.
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Old 08-12-2016, 09:09 PM
 
146 posts, read 162,005 times
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Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That sounds right as rain to me but the problem is hospice nurses have no say in how much morphine to administer the patient. All that falls under the purview of the attending physician. He's the one who determines how much morphine the hospice nurse can give and if he's one of these spineless no-goods who says, "Yeah, he sounds like he's in pain but unfortunately I'm not convinced he's in enough pain to warrant morphine so I'm going to decline the request." then the patient dies screaming.
That is why you need to have the patient at home and under the care of an experienced hospice nurse. In my State(Oregon), they are given wide authority for drug administration. The doctors want nothing to do with the patient after they enter hospice. Good riddance. In hospice care, they will be given what the nurse and family think is necessary.

If someone has a terminal disease they should also seek out a "palliative care physician." They specialize in pain management and also have a role in end-of-life care. They are much more willing to treat pain and discomfort aggressively. While my home state was a leader in physician-assisted-suicide, we also are one of the nation's leaders in the availability of palliative care, thus making the suicide option less likely to be chosen by patients. As others have stated before, most patients in Oregon die with the pills next to them, on the nightstand, unused.
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Old 08-12-2016, 10:30 PM
 
18,196 posts, read 16,800,272 times
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Originally Posted by northwesty View Post
That is why you need to have the patient at home and under the care of an experienced hospice nurse. In my State(Oregon), they are given wide authority for drug administration. The doctors want nothing to do with the patient after they enter hospice. Good riddance. In hospice care, they will be given what the nurse and family think is necessary.

If someone has a terminal disease they should also seek out a "palliative care physician." They specialize in pain management and also have a role in end-of-life care. They are much more willing to treat pain and discomfort aggressively. While my home state was a leader in physician-assisted-suicide, we also are one of the nation's leaders in the availability of palliative care, thus making the suicide option less likely to be chosen by patients. As others have stated before, most patients in Oregon die with the pills next to them, on the nightstand, unused.
Well, that's good new, though I still wonder how hospice nurses actually control the administration of such a powerfully controlled substance. Can you enlighten us a little more? How exactly do they make a request for more painkiller without a physician getting involved and are there ever any questions when a patient dies prematurely due to prolonged palliative sedation?

I've read that this thing of using palliative sedation as a way to bring a terminal patient's suffering to an end is a sort of "dirty secret" in the care industry; the kind where the doctor and the nurse kind of wink to each other because both know it's what the patient more or less wants but technically it's illegal to do. Basically how it works is the doctor knows the morphine is likely shortening the life---they can't say for certain by how much because we're all different---but at the same time the goal of relieving the pain is being met and if the tradeoff is shortening the patient's life by a little, well that's where the wink and a nod come in. How it works is the morphine is titrated as the patient progresses toward death until the respiration becomes affected and at some point, usually sooner than if the patient were not being given the morphine in such high doses, the patient just stops breathing. Some call it "stealth euthanasia" and it's done in all 50 states, some to a lesser degree than others. Nobody speaks of it but they all know what's happening. This study however reaches the opposite conclusion:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19542532

And frankly I'm all for it. I have said before I would want palliative sedation where if my death was coming in a matter of days to a few weeks I'd want to be put into a coma so I don't know what's happening until the end comes and then one of two things happen: 1. the "lights" go out and I don't even know it or 2. the next I know is that my spirit is lifting out of my body and heading toward the light (I don't believe in the "other place") I'm hoping for the 2nd , of course but if it's the first at least I won't know anything.

I say "good news" because many don't know how much power the case doctor wields even if it goes against the patient's advance directive or against his/her power-of-attorney. A doctor can find a hundred-and-one ways to get around the AD and they do it every day. As I described earlier it's almost insidious how they promise the patient, "Yes, I'm in your corner and I'll give you the medication you want even if it shortens your life" and then they do an about-face when the patient requests the meds. The smartest thing to do is have 2-3 doctors lined up that have agreed to step in at a moment's notice who will fulfill your wishes if you decide to "fire" the doctor managing your care who stabs you in the back.
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