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Heart attacks due to smoking and diabetes happen because of their effects on atherosclerosis, including accelerating the inflammation involved.
Lowering cholesterol slows the progression of atherosclerosis and reduces the risk of heart attack. Statins both lower cholesterol and reduce inflammation. If lowering inflammation were the best way to prevent coronary artery disease, that's what would be used. The fact is that the COX2 inhibitor anti-inflammatory drugs have been associated with an increased rate of heart attack.
Lifestyle changes are the foundation of the treatment of anyone with a lipid disorder. The problem is patient compliance.
For most of the people who are taking them, statins are worse than worthless.
I had said before that cholesterol is not usually the cause of heart disease, since most heart disease is caused by smoking or diabetes. So you sort of admitted that, but you still want people to take statins anyway, because they happen to be anti-inflammatory. Taking a toxic drug is a very bad way to reduce inflammation.
So then you finally admit the best treatment is lifestyle changes. Do you know why patients don't comply? Because their doctors, and the drug ads on TV, make them think the drugs are more important than lifestyle.
Why are we even having an argument here? We both know that heart disease should be prevented naturally, not with artificial chemicals that are known to cause damage, and that have unknown long-term effects.
Heart disease and cancer are diseases of modern industrial civilization. Every society that starts to modernize has dramatic increases in these diseases.
No, it is not because modern medicine makes them live longer so they get the horrible diseases that supposedly result naturally from age.
The longer you live the unnatural modern lifestyle, the more likely you are to get these diseases. So it SEEMS to be caused by age. It is not.
They have found cancer in very old corpses, way before the industrial revolution.
There is heart disease in 3rd world countries.
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For most of the people who are taking them, statins are worse than worthless.
I had said before that cholesterol is not usually the cause of heart disease, since most heart disease is caused by smoking or diabetes. So you sort of admitted that, but you still want people to take statins anyway, because they happen to be anti-inflammatory. Taking a toxic drug is a very bad way to reduce inflammation.
So then you finally admit the best treatment is lifestyle changes. Do you know why patients don't comply? Because their doctors, and the drug ads on TV, make them think the drugs are more important than lifestyle.
Why are we even having an argument here? We both know that heart disease should be prevented naturally, not with artificial chemicals that are known to cause damage, and that have unknown long-term effects.
I did not "finally admit the best treatment is lifestyle changes" since I never stated anyone should not do those things and just take a statin. Patients do not comply with lifestyle changes because compliance is hard.
No, statins are not worthless for most people who take them. Lifestyle changes are recommended for almost all who take them, though there are, believe it or not, thin, active people who have elevated cholesterol levels and really cannot do much more in that department. People who are not diabetic and who do not smoke also have heart attacks. Statins reduce cholesterol and have an anti-inflammatory effect. It is strange that you will admit to one effect and deny the other. That's just weird. Stains also have beneficial effects on the vessel wall and decrease the tendency for platelets to stick together.
It would be great if everyone could eliminate the risk of coronary heart disease with diet and exercise. It's just not always possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
Heart disease and cancer are diseases of modern industrial civilization. Every society that starts to modernize has dramatic increases in these diseases.
No, it is not because modern medicine makes them live longer so they get the horrible diseases that supposedly result naturally from age.
The longer you live the unnatural modern lifestyle, the more likely you are to get these diseases. So it SEEMS to be caused by age. It is not.
You said, "If artery disease were mostly genetic, then it would be found in non-industrial societies also, but it is not."
Coronary heart disease exists everywhere, so that statement is not true.
You cannot ignore the effect of increasing lifespan, either. If you die of measles at age 5 you never get old enough for atherosclerosis to progress to a degree that would have caused a fatal heart attack.
The following article discusses the changes in the incidence of cardiovascular disease in developing countries.
"The rapid rise in CHD burden in most of the low and middle and income countries is due to socio-economic changes, increase in life span and acquisition of lifestyle related risk factors."
That says "rise" in coronary heart disease burden. It does not say the appearance of CHD in a population that never had it.
It would be lovely if we could make all the risk factors that contribute to coronary artery disease (and ischemic stroke) go away. No one would smoke. No one would have high blood pressure. No one would be diabetic. No one would be obese. That's not happening. Meanwhile, statins can help prevent morbidity and mortality from atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease.
"there are, believe it or not, thin, active people who have elevated cholesterol levels"
Yes, about ONE PERCENT of the population has genetic high cholesterol. Statins were developed for them, but now they are given to almost every older American.
"Coronary heart disease exists everywhere, so that statement is not true."
You can say something exists even if it ALMOST NEVER exists. Heart disease and cancer are VERY RARE in non-industrial societies, and this is well known. They increase dramatically as people start having office jobs and eating processed food. Look it up.
Yes, if you die at age 5 you won't ever get heart disease. However, many people in non-industrial societies survive to old age, and they DO NOT HAVE HEART DISEASE.
You should look these things up. Don't just read the pro-drug BS.
"Coronary heart disease exists everywhere, so that statement is not true."
You can say something exists even if it ALMOST NEVER exists. Heart disease and cancer are VERY RARE in non-industrial societies, and this is well known. They increase dramatically as people start having office jobs and eating processed food. Look it up.
Yes, if you die at age 5 you won't ever get heart disease. However, many people in non-industrial societies survive to old age, and they DO NOT HAVE HEART DISEASE.
You should look these things up. Don't just read the pro-drug BS.
Did you look at the map, by country, on coronary disease? Says just the opposite of you.
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Cancer has always existed. Many begin as errors that happen as cells divide in order to reproduce themselves. They are not due to lifestyle or exposure to environmental carcinogens.
"there are, believe it or not, thin, active people who have elevated cholesterol levels"
Yes, about ONE PERCENT of the population has genetic high cholesterol. Statins were developed for them, but now they are given to almost every older American.
Why do you think statins are OK only for genetic causes of high cholesterol and not for anyone else with high cholesterol?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin
"Coronary heart disease exists everywhere, so that statement is not true."
You can say something exists even if it ALMOST NEVER exists. Heart disease and cancer are VERY RARE in non-industrial societies, and this is well known. They increase dramatically as people start having office jobs and eating processed food. Look it up.
Yes, if you die at age 5 you won't ever get heart disease. However, many people in non-industrial societies survive to old age, and they DO NOT HAVE HEART DISEASE.
You should look these things up. Don't just read the pro-drug BS.
You keep opining without providing any sources to back those opinions up. What I am finding does not support what you are saying. You need to provide references.
“The presence of atherosclerosis in premodern human beings suggests that the disease is an inherent component of human aging.”
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