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Old 03-11-2018, 03:06 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,485 posts, read 26,089,700 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GiGi603 View Post
Drug Companies and Research

Sounds like an oxymoron to me.
Do you realize that drug companies themselves do not actually do clinical research? Most of it is done by universities. The drug company provides the funding and has no control over the results or the publication of the research. Universities these days are very careful about that, because they do not want the adverse publicity that would ensue from fraudulent studies. Some research is done by doctors in private practice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyanna View Post
Inside Edition has contacted me and wants to interview me about coming down with flu three times within three months because statins damaged my immune system
How do you know statins "damaged" your immune system? Was your "flu" diagnosis confirmed by testing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
But it's OK to put down what others use who don't want the drugs? There are many alternatives that MD's won't even look to. And there is no "for sure" statins have saved lives...there is no "for sure" on just about anything.
Yes, the effects of statins on lowering the death rates from cardiovascular disease are known "for sure". On the other hand, there is virtually no research on your favorite "supps" to show they do anything - and what research there is is done by - you guessed it - people who make and sell them. The difference is that prescription drug research has to be replicated and pass peer review. Supplements? It's all anecdotes and testimonials.

MDs have looked at alternatives, including homeopathy, naturopathy, and chiropractic. If they worked, MDs would be using them.
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:32 PM
 
18,775 posts, read 6,129,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Do you realize that drug companies themselves do not actually do clinical research? Most of it is done by universities. The drug company provides the funding and has no control over the results or the publication of the research. Universities these days are very careful about that, because they do not want the adverse publicity that would ensue from fraudulent studies. Some research is done by doctors in private practice.



How do you know statins "damaged" your immune system? Was your "flu" diagnosis confirmed by testing?



Yes, the effects of statins on lowering the death rates from cardiovascular disease are known "for sure". On the other hand, there is virtually no research on your favorite "supps" to show they do anything - and what research there is is done by - you guessed it - people who make and sell them. The difference is that prescription drug research has to be replicated and pass peer review. Supplements? It's all anecdotes and testimonials.

MDs have looked at alternatives, including homeopathy, naturopathy, and chiropractic. If they worked, MDs would be using them.
Oh sure, MD's will tell their patients to go out and buy Vit C and use higher doses...go out and get grape seed ex and you will end up with a stronger immune system and make sure you are taking adequate magnesium for your heart health. Sure they tell their patients all this and more.
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:49 PM
 
4,618 posts, read 10,497,588 times
Reputation: 10291
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Oh sure, MD's will tell their patients to go out and buy Vit C and use higher doses...go out and get grape seed ex and you will end up with a stronger immune system and make sure you are taking adequate magnesium for your heart health. Sure they tell their patients all this and more.
You missed the key part of Suzy's post above...... "IF THEY WORKED"

Despite what you and your alternative crowd want to believe, the MD's I know want to help people....believe me there are easier ways for people bright enough to get into and through Medical School to make money....

MD's also don't get paid for writing scripts which again ruins a whole slew of alternative conspiracy theories...

IF I believed the evidence supported PRP injections for arthritis I would recommend them to all my patients...I don't believe they work and I believe they are a waste of money.....so I don't recommend them.

I have ZERO doubt my own PCP would recommend high dose Vitamin C and other supplements if he truly believed they were of benefit, fortunately he is an evidenced based physician and he and I are on the same page about medications, supplements and testing....the evidence doesn't support their use so he doesn't recommend them
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Old 03-11-2018, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,485 posts, read 26,089,700 times
Reputation: 26435
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Oh sure, MD's will tell their patients to go out and buy Vit C and use higher doses...go out and get grape seed ex and you will end up with a stronger immune system and make sure you are taking adequate magnesium for your heart health. Sure they tell their patients all this and more.
Where is the evidence is there, besides advertising from people who sell it, that your "grape seed ex" does what you believe it does?

Excess doses of vitamin C are excreted in the urine. That's just a waste of money. Here are the facts about vitamin C:

Vitamin C | Linus Pauling Institute | Oregon State University

The Pauling Institute recommends 400 mg per day.

And magnesium:

Magnesium | Linus Pauling Institute | Oregon State University

"Linus Pauling Institute Recommendation
The Linus Pauling Institute supports the latest RDA for magnesium intake (400-420 mg/day for men and 310-320 mg/day for women). Following the Linus Pauling Institute recommendation to take a daily multivitamin/mineral supplement may ensure an intake of at least 100 mg of magnesium/day. Few multivitamin/mineral supplements contain more than 100 mg of magnesium due to its bulk. Because magnesium is plentiful in foods, eating a varied diet that provides green vegetables, whole grains, and nuts daily should provide the rest of an individual's magnesium requirement.

Older adults (>50 years)
Older adults are less likely than younger adults to consume enough magnesium to meet their needs and should therefore take care to eat magnesium-rich foods in addition to taking a multivitamin/mineral supplement daily. Since older adults are more likely to have impaired kidney function, they should avoid taking more than 350 mg/day of supplemental magnesium without medical consultation (see Safety)."
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
27,448 posts, read 17,629,902 times
Reputation: 39933
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Oh sure, MD's will tell their patients to go out and buy Vit C and use higher doses...go out and get grape seed ex and you will end up with a stronger immune system and make sure you are taking adequate magnesium for your heart health. Sure they tell their patients all this and more.

Yep, they do. My gastro recommended ginger for nausea because the Rx caused tiredness, and they showed equally effective in testing, and peppermint for abdominal cramping. My eye doctor recommended fish oil, and my RA agrees with taking that.

ALL of my doctors agree and encourage exercise and healthy eating, and consider Rx the last remedy.
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:43 PM
 
Location: Central IL
13,349 posts, read 7,121,412 times
Reputation: 31043
Quote:
Originally Posted by gguerra View Post
I quit Statins on my own after developing side effects after 10 years. 3+ years on a Ketogenic diet normalized my numbers, routinely under 180 total. Fat's are not necessarily the cause of high cholesterol and for that matter cholesterol itself is not as bad as people make it out to be. Sugar and refined carbohydrates will raise your cholesterol more than fats and the combination of both is the worst. More hype from the doctors and many still have not got the memo. It's already proven, cholesterol by itself does not cause heart disease. The body on it's own produces 3000mg of cholesterol daily and it is essential for human life including brain function. The brain itself is made up of fat tissues. Many many cases of heart disease exist in people with low cholesterol. I could go on and on, and I don't think the reason doctors over prescribe Statins is Big Pharma and profits. Not any more it isn't. The patents have expired on most statins. Many doctor's are just used to doing the same thing over and over and never think outside the box. Food IS medicine and doctors fail to see that over and over.
Several people on here have stated their doctors gave them time to make "lifestyle" changes before deciding to go ahead with statins because there was no change. Why is there the assumption that doctors are anti-diet and exercise? Some PEOPLE are against lifestyle changes because they are hard...and, there's not always enough change to make a difference. So, if change doesn't work or people are unable or unwilling to make the change, then you try medication.

What is so hard about that? Doctors don't make money writing prescriptions...or when you buy a drug. They don't care how you make the necessary change as long as it is done in a healthy way.
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Old 03-11-2018, 04:56 PM
 
18,775 posts, read 6,129,215 times
Reputation: 12663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
Yep, they do. My gastro recommended ginger for nausea because the Rx caused tiredness, and they showed equally effective in testing, and peppermint for abdominal cramping. My eye doctor recommended fish oil, and my RA agrees with taking that.

ALL of my doctors agree and encourage exercise and healthy eating, and consider Rx the last remedy.
Who knows how much offer alts to the drugs. We don't know...there are 1000's of doctors. While in the rehabs I ended up with stomach issues due to opiods and they were ready to call the MD to get the script for upset stomach...I said NO...and called the MD and asked her if I could have someone bring me some baking soda as I knew that could settle my stomach. I was "kinda" shocked she said yes, so I saved myself from another drug. Sure enough BS did work.

I believe it's rare for allopathic MD's to offer alt meds...exercise and diet change, I would think so.
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Old 03-11-2018, 05:18 PM
 
954 posts, read 393,921 times
Reputation: 1627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Research has shown that statins have a small benefit for patients who are known to have artery disease. This is only over a 5 year period, and long-term results are probably not known.
Isn't the main benefit from statins now proven to be a reduction in inflammation NOT to do with cholesterol? In fact has there ever been a study that conclusively proved that cholesterol caused heart attacks or strokes? I used to think that it caused strokes but, in fact, recent studies have shown that 50% of strokes are caused by irregularities in the heart rhythm ... too long between beats forms clots. If you want to avoid a problem with that take magnesium.

Too me, cholesterol is a red herring. Unless it is insanely high, or there is a lot of calcium, or there is a lot of inflammation it isn't the cause.

Also Statins have been proven to increase the chances for diabetes. If your only risk factor is cholesterol.. you shouldn't be taking them.

There are studies that show correlation with high cholesterol but correlation is not causation. Where 90% of the population has high blood cholesterol it is an easy thing to claim as a cause. But many people I know who had low cholesterol had heart attacks. Just recently Bob Harper from the biggest loser.

I lost faith in doctors on this issue when I went to a doctor at 32 and she DEMANDED that I take statins. I took the prescription and didn't fill it. I thought she would just be normal when I didn't take them but she just about lost her mind. 20 years later.. no heart attack yet. Yes I fired her and found a DO who made the same recommendation but realized I wasn't going to go for it so said nothing.
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Old 03-11-2018, 06:26 PM
 
4,935 posts, read 2,562,297 times
Reputation: 21926
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Do you realize that drug companies themselves do not actually do clinical research?
Yes, very much so. My cousin does clinical research.
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Old 03-11-2018, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,485 posts, read 26,089,700 times
Reputation: 26435
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Who knows how much offer alts to the drugs. We don't know...there are 1000's of doctors. While in the rehabs I ended up with stomach issues due to opiods and they were ready to call the MD to get the script for upset stomach...I said NO...and called the MD and asked her if I could have someone bring me some baking soda as I knew that could settle my stomach. I was "kinda" shocked she said yes, so I saved myself from another drug. Sure enough BS did work.

I believe it's rare for allopathic MD's to offer alt meds...exercise and diet change, I would think so.
Lifestyle changes are the first thing discussed for many medical conditions, including elevated cholesterol.

2013 ACC/AHA Guideline on the Treatment of Blood Cholesterol to Reduce Atherosclerotic Cardiovascular Risk in Adults | JACC: Journal of the American College of Cardiology

Look at the very first statement on the page:

"Heart-healthy lifestyle habits are the foundation of ASCVD prevention"

Here are 46 pages that address lifestyle. It puts a lie to the idea that physicians do not know anything about nutrition and the value of exercise, which is a meme that alt med likes to play on.

file:///C:/Users/Bonnie/Downloads/01.cir.0000437740.48606.d1.full.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmilyFoxSeaton View Post
Isn't the main benefit from statins now proven to be a reduction in inflammation NOT to do with cholesterol? In fact has there ever been a study that conclusively proved that cholesterol caused heart attacks or strokes? I used to think that it caused strokes but, in fact, recent studies have shown that 50% of strokes are caused by irregularities in the heart rhythm ... too long between beats forms clots. If you want to avoid a problem with that take magnesium.

Too me, cholesterol is a red herring. Unless it is insanely high, or there is a lot of calcium, or there is a lot of inflammation it isn't the cause.

Also Statins have been proven to increase the chances for diabetes. If your only risk factor is cholesterol.. you shouldn't be taking them.

There are studies that show correlation with high cholesterol but correlation is not causation. Where 90% of the population has high blood cholesterol it is an easy thing to claim as a cause. But many people I know who had low cholesterol had heart attacks. Just recently Bob Harper from the biggest loser.

I lost faith in doctors on this issue when I went to a doctor at 32 and she DEMANDED that I take statins. I took the prescription and didn't fill it. I thought she would just be normal when I didn't take them but she just about lost her mind. 20 years later.. no heart attack yet. Yes I fired her and found a DO who made the same recommendation but realized I wasn't going to go for it so said nothing.
Cholesterol is part of the atherosclerotic plaque. Without it, there is no plaque to obstruct arteries and eventually rupture and cause a clot to form.

The fat comes first, deposited when the lining (endothelium) of the artery does not function properly and allows lipids to permeate through it.

Atherosclerosis | McMaster Pathophysiology Review

"Earliest visible lesions that appear as areas of yellow discoloration on artery’s inner surface; blood flow is not yet impeded at this stage
Central to this process is endothelial dysfunction, which allows entry and modification of lipids in the vessel subintima; these lipids then serve as pro-inflammatory mediators that initiate leukocyte recruitment and foam cell formation"

Lowering cholesterol does prevent heart attacks and strokes.

Summarizing the Current State and Evidence on Efficacy and Safety of Statin Therapy - American College of Cardiology

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22607822

About 15% of strokes are due to atrial fibrillation:

When the Beat is Off - Atrial Fibrillation


Magnesium for Atrial Fibrillation, Myth or Magic? | Circulation: Arrhythmia and Electrophysiology

"Low magnesium levels have been implicated as a risk factor for the development of atrial fibrillation (AF). However, like many interventions before it, supplementing magnesium levels does not necessarily lead to a successful cardioversion or better prevention of AF in high-risk groups."

Current statin treatment guidelines are not based solely on cholesterol levels. They integrate multiple risk factors.

The absolute increase in the risk of diabetes with statins is small, and it may be that the statin only unmasks it in someone who was already developing it. As you note, correlation does not prove causation. Following lifestyle modification recommendations may prevent the emergence of diabetes while on a statin.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4926726/

"Of note, the risk–benefit ratio for CVD still clearly favored statin therapy in various studies, including JUPITER, in primary prevention, several secondary prevention studies, and a meta-analysis of secondary prevention studies by Preiss et al. Thus, regardless of whether or not diabetes was diagnosed during statin therapy, the CVD outcomes were reduced on statin therapy compared to those observed with placebo."

Yes, people with normal cholesterol levels can have heart attacks. That is why cholesterol numbers are not the only factor used to determine whether someone should take a statin.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart...ow-cholesterol

"In a population, a lower LDL level is—on average—associated with a lower risk of heart attack. But about half of all heart attacks occur in people with "normal" cholesterol levels. An individual person may have a whole range of other conditions that could raise the risk. Some of the best-known ones are smoking, diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity, and a lack of physical activity. Other potential contributors include secondhand smoke and air pollution. In addition, there are likely genetic and lifestyle factors that we don't fully understand."

Quote:
Originally Posted by GiGi603 View Post
Yes, very much so. My cousin does clinical research.
Then perhaps your cousin can explain to you the processes currently used to prevent fraud in clinical studies.
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