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Old 08-28-2017, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,101 posts, read 2,225,371 times
Reputation: 5113

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
I'm no scientist... but by random chance I sat next to one at lunch in a ski resort. He's a orthopedic surgeon, professor in a major research university medical school (Cornell University's Weill Cornell Medical College), and a PhD in molecular biology. And an avid skier, like me.

I asked him about the topics of this thread (this was about 6 months ago).

In a nutshell, he said the science doesn't support it... and it doesn't rule it out either. Early on there were some very good results in research-quality academic studies, but in the past couple of years the study results have been all over the map. One study reports a promising result while the next one does not.

At least that's my understanding of what he said.

His view is that some doctors have found plp and stem cell injections to be very, very lucrative, and that's why so much is advertised.

Mainstream medicine has been doing surgeries from day 1 and replacements, maybe 20 yrs give or take. Many go thru a lot of downtime and enough have complications. If the PRP/Stem Cell doctors didn't have good results, would they remain in business? Dr. Darrow has been doing this work for 20 yrs after a botched shoulder surgery by one of his professors in medical school.


I just know I live with nasty complications from hip surgery 7 yrs out this Oct.

Thanks.
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Old 08-28-2017, 03:37 PM
 
3,750 posts, read 9,452,043 times
Reputation: 6622
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Why is everyone lined up for surgeries. Assembly lines of surgeries.

All these doctors who do this work are affiliated with the AMA. Like you doctor.

Many people don't have insurance and if they do high premiums and high deductibles and buy supplements for their insurance. Medicare patients have their shares of cost. etc..

Back to the main topic. Did you even look at the OP's links, probably not.
Like I said, when people start throwing around "AMA" I know they have NO idea what they are talking about...

What do you think the AMA does exactly? Do you think, like many conspiracy fanatics, that it is some shadow organization directing what physicians can and cannot do???

In reality it is nothing more than an advocacy group...

As for "ALL doctors being affiliated with the AMA" that is just laughable...

Not counting those members, somewhere in the neighbourhood of 15% of practising US doctors now belong to the AMA
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3153537/

How you coming with that explanation on how it is somehow "beneficial" to insurers to pay for total joint replacement and not pay for PRP???

Seems perfectly reasonable that organizations that routinely refuse to cover tests, procedures and medications to save a buck or two would actually WANT to pay thousands for total joints rather than hundreds for PRP right?

Any luck yet on making that nonsense some how make sense???
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Old 08-28-2017, 03:51 PM
 
3,750 posts, read 9,452,043 times
Reputation: 6622
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Mainstream medicine has been doing surgeries from day 1 and replacements, maybe 20 yrs give or take. Many go thru a lot of downtime and enough have complications. If the PRP/Stem Cell doctors didn't have good results, would they remain in business? Dr. Darrow has been doing this work for 20 yrs after a botched shoulder surgery by one of his professors in medical school.


I just know I live with nasty complications from hip surgery 7 yrs out this Oct.

Thanks.
Why do they remain in business?? Well, as the saying goes "there is a sucker born every minute"

They stay in business for the same reason your supplement makers and homeopaths and alternative practitioners of every stripe stay in business despite the lack of evidence that ANYTHING THEY DO ACTUALLY WORKS....because if someone "believes they are receiving a benefit then they often do" otherwise known as placebo effect...

Not to mention in the case of many joint and soft tissue injuries for which these injections are done, symptoms often wax and wane over time anyway....meaning if you did NOTHING symptoms would likely improve which is why PRP is NOT considered better than placebo

"Without any clear evidence of benefit beyond placebo, PRP is now being marketed aggressively as a cure-all for sports injuries. And at about $300 per injection (the NYT reports $2000/treatment), there’s plenty of money to be made. … a nation-wide marketing initiative has begun, using sports celebrities as guinea pigs."
https://www.painscience.com/articles...es-it-work.php

Sportyandmisty summed it up very well...

There is conflicting evidence that PRP, stem cells and the like actually work, some studies say yes many more say no...

In the meantime folks are lining up for anything they "think" might work and in the case of PRP injections believe me, your "Dr Darrow" hopes insurance NEVER pays for these shots

Physicians can make MUCH more if patients have to pay out of pocket for a procedure because then the physician ACTUALLY gets PAID

If a PRP injection is advertised for $800.00 out of pocket, no insurance coverage, thats how much you will pay and that is how much the physician will receive

If PRP injections are ever covered by Medicare, the "charge" may still be $800.00 but Medicare actually only "pays" pennies on the dollar and what the physician actually sees will be MUCH LESS than $800.00
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,101 posts, read 2,225,371 times
Reputation: 5113
OP, did you read the testimonials in the link you posted. I just read most of them and I will not believe patients are making up stories...
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,101 posts, read 2,225,371 times
Reputation: 5113
And Kobe isn't the only athlete who has gone the PRP/Stem Cell route.

Kobe Bryant Benefit of PRP Therapy | Biologic Treatments for Sports Injuries | Colorado


Kobe sure has beat up his body.

http://grantland.com/features/kobe-b...nee-treatment/

My first experience with dextrose prolo was thru a Sports Med MD in my town.

Oh interesting reading Why Kobe Went to Germany... I found the name of Dr. Steven Samson who does and teaches PRP and actually the hip surgeon gave his name to go see him for all the damage I was dealing with from surgery. I never went to Samson as I found Dr. Gupta in our town who does Prolo...she is not the "run of the mill" rheumatologist. I went to her for about 2 yrs.

Last edited by jaminhealth; 08-28-2017 at 05:07 PM..
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Old 08-28-2017, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,101 posts, read 2,225,371 times
Reputation: 5113
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Why do they remain in business?? Well, as the saying goes "there is a sucker born every minute"

They stay in business for the same reason your supplement makers and homeopaths and alternative practitioners of every stripe stay in business despite the lack of evidence that ANYTHING THEY DO ACTUALLY WORKS....because if someone "believes they are receiving a benefit then they often do" otherwise known as placebo effect...

Not to mention in the case of many joint and soft tissue injuries for which these injections are done, symptoms often wax and wane over time anyway....meaning if you did NOTHING symptoms would likely improve which is why PRP is NOT considered better than placebo

"Without any clear evidence of benefit beyond placebo, PRP is now being marketed aggressively as a cure-all for sports injuries. And at about $300 per injection (the NYT reports $2000/treatment), there’s plenty of money to be made. … a nation-wide marketing initiative has begun, using sports celebrities as guinea pigs."
https://www.painscience.com/articles...es-it-work.php

Sportyandmisty summed it up very well...

There is conflicting evidence that PRP, stem cells and the like actually work, some studies say yes many more say no...

In the meantime folks are lining up for anything they "think" might work and in the case of PRP injections believe me, your "Dr Darrow" hopes insurance NEVER pays for these shots

Physicians can make MUCH more if patients have to pay out of pocket for a procedure because then the physician ACTUALLY gets PAID

If a PRP injection is advertised for $800.00 out of pocket, no insurance coverage, thats how much you will pay and that is how much the physician will receive


If PRP injections are ever covered by Medicare, the "charge" may still be $800.00 but Medicare actually only "pays" pennies on the dollar and what the physician actually sees will be MUCH LESS than $800.00

I know, the medicine you push is what everyone needs to rely on!!!!

We're all suckers for keeping our minds open to options vs drugs and cutting the body.

Last edited by jaminhealth; 08-28-2017 at 04:53 PM..
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Old 08-28-2017, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,101 posts, read 2,225,371 times
Reputation: 5113
US behind the rest of the world on stem cells. My sister died waiting for them, a friend with MS went to Dominican Republic for stem cells for MS.


Bleacher Report | Sports. Highlights. News. Now.

This is an older link but not a heck of a lot has changed as the stem cells now used by MD's for joints is pretty pricey and no insurance.
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Old 08-28-2017, 09:15 PM
 
4 posts, read 412 times
Reputation: 15
My recommendation, find one of the few docs who've been doing it for decades. Dr Kochan, in Van Nuys CA, is my guy. He's great. 25 years ago, he was one of FOUR docs in the entire LA area doing it. Then, it became more popular, and lots jumped on the bandwagon. I swear by Dr Kochan, he's great.
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Old 08-28-2017, 09:26 PM
 
2,558 posts, read 1,623,620 times
Reputation: 5996
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiffBueno View Post
My recommendation, find one of the few docs who've been doing it for decades. Dr Kochan, in Van Nuys CA, is my guy. He's great. 25 years ago, he was one of FOUR docs in the entire LA area doing it. Then, it became more popular, and lots jumped on the bandwagon. I swear by Dr Kochan, he's great.
What did he do for you exactly?
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Old 08-29-2017, 11:39 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
7,973 posts, read 4,989,012 times
Reputation: 9720
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
From how it is explained to me, it makes little or no difference how much the doctors bill the insurance company and/or medicare. There is a set amount that is paid. You can bill 10,000 or 100,000 the payment, most likely will be the same or similar.
From what I have seen on the traditional Medicare and my secondary insurance explanation of benefits (EOB) papers, it looks as though Medicare reimburses the providers who accept Medicare assignment approximately a third of the amount submitted to Medicare. That one third of the billed amount is what Medicare labels as the "usual and customary" fee (considering the locale) for a given service, and Medicare pays 80% of that amount. The other 20% of that amount is paid either by the patient or by a supplemental insurance carrier.
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