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Old 08-29-2017, 01:08 PM
bg7
 
6,950 posts, read 6,371,572 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
My theory and thinking on WHY insurance won't cover these injections...--- they CAN really work and save people from the insurance covered surgeries. At least one ortho MD here does send patients for PRP/Stem Cells but these are out of pocket as I've said.

Some say here, they aren't covered as they don't work. I don't buy that one.

I went thru HA injections and these are insurance covered and they did NOT work...3 sessions two different times...I tried again even after first session didn't help.
Your theory makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - its all upside down. The insurer won't want to pay for expensive surgeries if it could be for a cheaper stem cell therapy proven to work,


I've told you before - you've got a preconceived "big pharma conspiracy" notion and it invades all your thinking about medicine leading to such ridiculous theories as the one you posit above.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:12 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,166 posts, read 2,241,646 times
Reputation: 5163
Quote:
Originally Posted by bg7 View Post
Your theory makes absolutely no sense whatsoever - its all upside down. The insurer won't want to pay for expensive surgeries if it could be for a cheaper stem cell therapy proven to work,


I've told you before - you've got a preconceived "big pharma conspiracy" notion and it invades all your thinking about medicine leading to such ridiculous theories as the one you posit above.


And I've said IF ortho MD's (and some do offer them now) offered patients PRP and Stem Cells, AND IF insurance covered these protocols, a number of surgeons could be doing less and less surgeries.

And surgeons become surgeons to do surgery, Right?

Dr. Darrow did just that and changed his "calling" from surgery to PRP/Stem Cells.


Insurance does not LOVE or LIKE to pay for anything...their jobs are to pay out as less as possible.
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Old 08-29-2017, 01:26 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
18,101 posts, read 22,220,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
Dr. Darrow did just that and changed his "calling" from surgery to PRP/Stem Cells.
He found a lucrative niche. Since insurance does not pay for it, he has an all cash practice.

Quote:
Insurance does not LOVE or LIKE to pay for anything...their jobs are to pay out as less as possible.
Which is why they do not pay for procedures which have not been shown to be beneficial.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,166 posts, read 2,241,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
He found a lucrative niche. Since insurance does not pay for it, he has an all cash practice.



Which is why they do not pay for procedures which have not been shown to be beneficial.

And I guess you are not reading links on all the athletes who have gone to Europe for these PRP and Stem Cells as they want to continue in their professions and not have all the downtime with surgeries and then the chance of complications.

Nor have you read about my friends, husband and wife, who both are getting benefits from dextrose and paying out of pocket. And me in some instances, relief and paying out of pocket.


So many don't want to see the logic of it all...doctors, insurance, the whole medical world benefits so much from surgeries, replacements....
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,166 posts, read 2,241,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiffBueno View Post
My recommendation, find one of the few docs who've been doing it for decades. Dr Kochan, in Van Nuys CA, is my guy. He's great. 25 years ago, he was one of FOUR docs in the entire LA area doing it. Then, it became more popular, and lots jumped on the bandwagon. I swear by Dr Kochan, he's great.
Dr. Kochan has a great reputation and lots of years under his belt of doing this work. Dr. Darrow here in WLA who I hear a lot and MAY go to even gives Dr. Kochan a positive review on yelp as one doctor who has taught him a lot while on this journey with this work. I can't get to Van Nuys and lucky I can get rides to where I have to go on Westside. Thanks.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:18 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
7,166 posts, read 2,241,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
He found a lucrative niche. Since insurance does not pay for it, he has an all cash practice.



Which is why they do not pay for procedures which have not been shown to be beneficial.

He woke up to the pitfalls of surgeries, replacements and so what if he found a "lucrative niche"...what have the surgeons been doing forever. Insurance does pay for O.V. in most cases but not the injections.

Insurance pays for all the stuff that does not work, for me anyway, like HA injections and then the dastardly cortisone.
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Old 08-29-2017, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
9,197 posts, read 6,999,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
...Sportyandmisty summed it up very well...

There is conflicting evidence that PRP, stem cells and the like actually work...
Just for clarity, all I can do is recount what an actual scientist told me in a setting away from the office (a ski resort lodge). I don't have any first hand knowledge, nor the skillset to do any review of published research myself.
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
19,962 posts, read 13,324,490 times
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I would imagine that there is a disparity in treatment results because it is not being done in a setting where it is under.... observation? I'm not saying it right, but if any doctor can go and set-up shop that is completely private practice (no insurance even) then no one is holding them to standards. No review if it is being done properly, might do it without imagining being done, etc. It may help specific conditions, but the doctors will do it on anyone who pays (I imagine that would be the tendency, some I'm sure have ethics to turn away business).
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:28 PM
 
3,754 posts, read 9,456,794 times
Reputation: 6648
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
And I've said IF ortho MD's (and some do offer them now) offered patients PRP and Stem Cells, AND IF insurance covered these protocols, a number of surgeons could be doing less and less surgeries.

And surgeons become surgeons to do surgery, Right?

Dr. Darrow did just that and changed his "calling" from surgery to PRP/Stem Cells.


Insurance does not LOVE or LIKE to pay for anything...their jobs are to pay out as less as possible.
1. Stem cells and PRP injections would have to actually WORK for surgeons to do LESS surgeries because of them, there is little evidence that they do work.....and no celebrity "testimonials" don't count as research

2. If insurance actually covered these injections you might actually have trouble finding anyone to do them, they are time consuming and labor intensive and what insurance would actually likely pay would make them less enticing to perform by the "niche" clinics that have popped up everywhere to perform these "out of pocket" and lucrative procedures

3. Your "Dr. Darrow" didn't "change his calling" anyone can google his life story which he willingly shares, he was NEVER a surgeon
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Old 08-29-2017, 03:39 PM
 
3,754 posts, read 9,456,794 times
Reputation: 6648
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikala43 View Post
I would imagine that there is a disparity in treatment results because it is not being done in a setting where it is under.... observation? I'm not saying it right, but if any doctor can go and set-up shop that is completely private practice (no insurance even) then no one is holding them to standards. No review if it is being done properly, might do it without imagining being done, etc. It may help specific conditions, but the doctors will do it on anyone who pays (I imagine that would be the tendency, some I'm sure have ethics to turn away business).

What you are saying is exactly right and is true of prolotherapy, PRP and Stem Cell treatments....all of which fall under the umbrella of "Regenerative Medicine"

Now these clinics pop up everywhere....places like Flexogenix and the like...

Bottom line, none of these treatments have been shown to be more effective than placebo and haven't been adequately studied in double blinded testing to make any rational conclusions about their effectiveness..

Unfortunately many people here and everywhere believe that "anecdotal evidence" is sufficient to prove efficacy when nothing could be further from the truth.

"Prolotherapy is a treatment that has been around for a long time, but still lacks definitive clinical evidence for efficacy.It should be noted that the current level of evidence is completely compatible with the null hypothesis — that there is no specific effect from prolotherapy. Researcher bias, p-hacking, publication bias, mixing variables, and placebo effects can all conspire together to create the impression of a positive effect where none exists. Most of the time, encouraging preliminary research such as exists for prolotherapy is not supported by later rigorous clinical research.
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/prolotherapy/

"With some degree of sadness I recently “outed” a former co-resident of mine who has turned to the dark side and begun putting money-making before truth and science. Without any clear evidence of benefit beyond placebo, platelet-rich plasma (PRP) is now being marketed aggressively as a cure-all for sports injuries. And at about $300 per injection (the NYT reports $2000/treatment), there’s plenty of money to be made."
https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-c...ery-marketing/
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