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Old 10-14-2017, 01:58 AM
 
21,382 posts, read 7,904,188 times
Reputation: 18149

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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I How did Money "experiment with children"? What research did he falsify?

I suspect that you are referring to the child born male who had surgery and was reared as female after a complication of circumcision. As an adult that child regretted what had been done and ultimately committed suicide. Was that an "experiment" or an attempt to help a child with a devastating genital injury?
I'm actually appalled at the lack of research you are doing and still trying to debate with me. You post 5,000 links every time you post, yet you STILL have done zero research into John Money? Who sexually abused toddlers in the name of research? And you are posting as though it is an offside that doesn't matter? No mention of the fact that he forced the twin boys to simulate sex acts with each other in the name of GENDER RESEARCH????? Calling one Brenda and telling HIM that he is a GIRL is "helping"?

Making twin toddlers pretend to have sex with each other, telling their parents its for their own good, writing up false papers about how its so successful when it CAUSED the man to KILL HIMSELF is "HELPING"?????

"Psychologist John Money oversaw the case and reported the reassignment as successful and as evidence that gender identity is primarily learned. Academic sexologist Milton Diamond later reported that Reimer's realization he was not a girl crystallized between the ages of 9 and 11,[2] and he transitioned to living as a male at age 15. Well known in medical circles for years anonymously as the "John/Joan" case, Reimer later went public with his story to help discourage similar medical practices.[3]"

Oh and here is what happened to BOTH the boys:

"On July 1, 2002,[18] Brian was found dead from an overdose of antidepressants. On May 4, 2004, after suffering years of severe depression, financial instability, and marital troubles,[19] David committed suicide by shooting himself in the head with a sawed-off shotgun at the age of 38. Reimer's parents have stated that Money's methodology was responsible for the deaths of both of their sons.[20]"

"For the first thirty years after Money's initial report that the reassignment had been a success, Money's view of the malleability of gender became the dominant viewpoint among physicians and doctors, reassuring them that sexual reassignment was the correct decision in certain instances, resulting in thousands of sexual reassignments.[15]"

Thousands of reassignments based off a case where BOTH committed suicide. But hey, it's for research and helping and doesn't matter that both committed suicide. Because it was a success according to Money. /facepalm/

Last edited by newtovenice; 10-14-2017 at 02:29 AM..

 
Old 10-14-2017, 03:21 AM
 
Location: 415->916->602
3,145 posts, read 2,646,727 times
Reputation: 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb at sea View Post
What's to talk about? Many of these folks who waiver back and forth have mental issues.

If someone REALLY feels they're not the sex they were born into, they do the deed, and are done...they are now another sex.....some of these folks need therapy...not surgery.

I don't wanna stir up too much controversy here but I seen an increase in gay/bi-sexual/pansexual/ transexual lifestyle/claims. I feel like an increasingly amount of our population "claim" to be gay. In my opinion, I think society put in their heads that they're gay or they were put in the wrong body. Therefore, they adopt a mind frame of "something missing"

When i was a teenager, there was the occasional kid who confessed about being gay/lesbian but I haven't knew anyone that questioned their gender. (until now-more about that later). But now, it seems like a lot more people are confessing that they're gay, transexual, "born into the wrong body", etc.... (And I hate to say this, but I think it's a bandwagon mentality going on) Sure, you can make the argument that today's society are more tolerate and accepting than it was in the early 2000's, and that's true, but those "claims" have skyrocketed in the past 7 years or so. Therefore, for some of the population, I think it could be a cry for help rather than being "born into the wrong body", or "being gay". I also do know people who claimed to be gay at one point but switch back to the hetero lifestyle later on in life.

One of my dearest friend's cousin, who is 16 years old, claims to be gay. Everyone in her family, including her mom, thinks it's a phase. While there's no "warning signs" of people being gay, her mom insists that she enjoyed doing feminine things and liked boys. And then one day, BOOM, she's gay. Now she's talking about having a sex change when she turns 18 years old. Her mom thinks that since her estranged dad is homophobic, she is acting out "in the worst way possible" in order to "seek revenge on him." (she blames him for the divorce)

From interacting with gay people IRL, there were signs that the parents/sibblings/friends saw before they confessed that they were gay. Of course I know those signs are not universal for everyone to adapt to but I'm just giving you my perspective on what I have seen or have been told. But I am not gay nor I have a desire to switch genders, so I cannot truly empathize.

Last edited by 49erfan916; 10-14-2017 at 03:41 AM..
 
Old 10-14-2017, 03:30 AM
 
Location: 415->916->602
3,145 posts, read 2,646,727 times
Reputation: 3872
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss20ts View Post
Blah, blah, blah.......many people really just don't care! It doesn't impact their lives directly so who cares? Lots of folks aren't watching tv shows where it was added. I don't watch tv shows about children. Bruce Jenner is just trying to stay in the limelight.....he lost the Kardashian cash cow. I have no clue about basketball and NC....don't watch basketball and I don't live anywhere near NC. They can do what they want with their bathrooms. We'll just call everyone it so no one is offended.....people are offended by everything today.
I am not a person. I am a coffee bean!
 
Old 10-14-2017, 03:52 AM
 
Location: Anderson, IN
6,855 posts, read 2,832,448 times
Reputation: 4193
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
Murder is always wrong. I don't think anyone here has said any different, or thinks any different.

But this has nothing to do with mental illness. Nothing. It's a smoke screen argument. And to say that "it would not affect me" is an insult. You haven't read my posts for what they are. Of course MURDER IS WRONG.
You stating that I am mentally ill and in need of help is an insult. I have excellent doctors and an excellent Psychiatrist. So I suppose we're even, then?

Quote:
It's also why I find John Money's experiments of sexual abuse of toddlers in the name of transgender research so disgusting. Or do you approve of his research? Have you even heard of him? have you read his work?

What John Money has said, or done doesn't invalidate the work of others. It certainly doesn't invalidate the brain studies I've posted repeatedly that you keep ignoring.
 
Old 10-14-2017, 05:03 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
15,209 posts, read 10,241,777 times
Reputation: 32171
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1960 View Post
Around five years ago, Professor Miroslav Djordjevic, the world-leading genital reconstructive surgeon, received a visit at his Belgrade clinic: a transgender person who had undergone surgery at different clinic to remove male genitalia - and since changed their mind.

Sex change regret: Gender reversal surgery is on the rise, so why aren't we talking about it?

We aren't talking about it because we don't care. It effects me not in the least. Perhaps these people should get extensive mental health before committing to such drastic measures?
 
Old 10-14-2017, 07:06 AM
 
Location: Gettysburg, PA
3,051 posts, read 2,911,360 times
Reputation: 7168
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss20ts View Post
Blah, blah, blah.......many people really just don't care! It doesn't impact their lives directly so who cares? Lots of folks aren't watching tv shows where it was added. I don't watch tv shows about children. Bruce Jenner is just trying to stay in the limelight.....he lost the Kardashian cash cow. I have no clue about basketball and NC....don't watch basketball and I don't live anywhere near NC. They can do what they want with their bathrooms. We'll just call everyone it so no one is offended.....people are offended by everything today.

That is true, however the point of the thread is that the media is propagandizing transgenders like they're normal, healthy, everyday individuals which is NOT TRUE for many of them. Many, if not most of these people have serious mental issues that do not go addressed when gender re-assignment is fronted as a main-stream activity. That's just not the facts, people. The fact is there are underlying issues with many if not most transgendered people. Such people are often under the impression that changing their gender can fix these problems; however, the high percentage of gender-reassignment regret and high suicide rate is some evidence that that's just not the case.

Once again, it is very important to not get caught up in emotional reactions and look at the straight facts. There surely are people who change their genders and go on to lead very successful lives; I am not doubting that. Yet there is a significant percentage of individuals who consider themselves to be transgender who have very serious mental problems, but there is not a word of this in the mainstream media.
 
Old 10-14-2017, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Brusssels
1,949 posts, read 3,858,313 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Basiliximab View Post
That is true, however the point of the thread is that the media is propagandizing transgenders like they're normal, healthy, everyday individuals which is NOT TRUE for many of them. Many, if not most of these people have serious mental issues that do not go addressed when gender re-assignment is fronted as a main-stream activity. That's just not the facts, people. The fact is there are underlying issues with many if not most transgendered people. Such people are often under the impression that changing their gender can fix these problems; however, the high percentage of gender-reassignment regret and high suicide rate is some evidence that that's just not the case.

Once again, it is very important to not get caught up in emotional reactions and look at the straight facts. There surely are people who change their genders and go on to lead very successful lives; I am not doubting that. Yet there is a significant percentage of individuals who consider themselves to be transgender who have very serious mental problems, but there is not a word of this in the mainstream media.
In any discussion like this its important not to conflate sex and gender. Sex is what is between your legs while gender is what is between your ears.

I read a study recently that found that a number of people who seek sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) are actually nonbinary but they think changing their sex will help them to assimilate in society better when expressing their gender.

They could instead seek to be more comfortable expressing their gender - but given that society is not so accepting of that it does not seem like a viable option for them.

In other words, if people were more accepting of different gender expressions, fewer people would seek SRS (only the ones who won't regret it someday)...and a lot fewer trans people would feel so ostracized that they commit suicide.

Just by being kind, decent, and accepting of others we can make this better for a lot of people.
 
Old 10-14-2017, 08:08 AM
 
Location: Anderson, IN
6,855 posts, read 2,832,448 times
Reputation: 4193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpat View Post
In any discussion like this its important not to conflate sex and gender. Sex is what is between your legs while gender is what is between your ears.

I read a study recently that found that a number of people who seek sexual reassignment surgery (SRS) are actually nonbinary but they think changing their sex will help them to assimilate in society better when expressing their gender.

They could instead seek to be more comfortable expressing their gender - but given that society is not so accepting of that it does not seem like a viable option for them.

In other words, if people were more accepting of different gender expressions, fewer people would seek SRS (only the ones who won't regret it someday)...and a lot fewer trans people would feel so ostracized that they commit suicide.

Just by being kind, decent, and accepting of others we can make this better for a lot of people.
Wonderful post, thank you Xpat.
 
Old 10-14-2017, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Central IL
20,726 posts, read 16,287,003 times
Reputation: 50370
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
Because it is not politically correct to say these people have mental health issues. They need to be accepted and catered to because that is what makes them healthy. Because everyone knows political correctness is the best way to get health advice. Kinda like agreeing with an anorexic that she's too fat and telling her she needs to go for another jog. Because that will make her well. /facepalm/
Just trying to get to the basis of your "argument". You believe that 100% of "these people" have a mental health issue? Because there is no biological possibility of a mismatch/mistake about physical sex organs and other components of sexuality? I'm trying to keep this vague because I want your core argument and not something in terms of mere semantics.

Because many people believe they have a certain health issue but don't - either because they misperceive the true symptoms or are disregarding that they don't actually have the symptoms/defining characteristics. Yet, many people legitimately have the condition - and it isn't disputed for those folks who have been so diagnosed or identified. So the mere fact that it is important to correctly identify who is transgender from those who don't, and that ONE of the accepted ways to attempt to do that is through psychiatric evaluation does nothing to disprove the condition or "state" exists.

Also, your constant reference to John Money and his disreputable "research" methods does not invalidate all the other research done - that body of research stands on its own merits regardless.

So tell me what your real case is - not piecemeal but all at once in a single post so it is clear.
 
Old 10-14-2017, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Hollywood and Vine
2,077 posts, read 2,010,092 times
Reputation: 4964
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
Perhaps they have changed the protocols or there are unethical surgeons, but it used to be you had to have extensive psychological evaluation as well as counseling and significant passage of time between stages of hormone replacement and various surgeries to help prevent this type of issue. So is the protocol less stringent or has the "base" looking for this surgery different than when it was first available in the 1960's (less committed)? Or something else?
I know MANY, many trans folk and have had three friends that I can think of off the top of my head who have de- transitioned in the last few years . They all had enough cash and knew the right keywords to tell the psych . Alot of garden variety cross dressers have learned how to do this and yes I have come to believe after many years of involvement in that community that many DO but wont get actual therapy from a therapist that knows the difference.

The people that I know got their jobs back but not the family they were hoping for , had EVERYTHING done including facial surgery and have described themselves as Ken dolls .
You can only go so far back when you have had that amount of work done .

At first they felt like killing themselves because they could not get the surgery fast enough. Now they feel the same because they are stuck in this middle sort of place . One feels nothing -no emotion- anymore , another is now mentally incapable of falling in love ( he said was his greatest regret ) of feeling the emotion of love .
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