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Old 11-10-2017, 05:47 PM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,397,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Yes, the immune system continuously removes potentially cancerous cells. Those cells are not cancers. Some cancers may be less aggressive than others, but they are not all cancers or most of any cancers. None of this has any relevance to your assertion that medicine has not lengthened the average lifespan in the US.
The question about cancer cure rates was a side topic, as you must know.

And I did not say medicine has not lengthened the average lifespan! And you know it, or you should!

I said the average lifespan increased dramatically in the 20th century, and this is mostly accounted for by decreased infant mortality. And I said that infant mortality decreased for various reasons, possibly including antibiotics and vaccines.

The point, which you probably missed, was that the increased rates of cancer, diabetes 2, etc., should not be explained by longer lifespans. This is a very common misunderstanding, and it is encouraged by the medical and drug industries.

When average lifespan was much shorter than it is now, people who survived childhood were likely to get old. And getting old did not result in the high rates of cancer, etc., we have now.

Lifestyle and environmental toxins are MAJOR factors. As you know, but you hate to admit.

 
Old 11-10-2017, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,032 posts, read 41,094,361 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
The question about cancer cure rates was a side topic, as you must know.

And I did not say medicine has not lengthened the average lifespan! And you know it, or you should!

I said the average lifespan increased dramatically in the 20th century, and this is mostly accounted for by decreased infant mortality. And I said that infant mortality decreased for various reasons, possibly including antibiotics and vaccines.

The point, which you probably missed, was that the increased rates of cancer, diabetes 2, etc., should not be explained by longer lifespans. This is a very common misunderstanding, and it is encouraged by the medical and drug industries.

When average lifespan was much shorter than it is now, people who survived childhood were likely to get old. And getting old did not result in the high rates of cancer, etc., we have now.

Lifestyle and environmental toxins are MAJOR factors. As you know, but you hate to admit.
Lifespan has increased for age groups that do not include infants, as I previously showed you for the ages of 65 and 85. Infant mortality and childhood mortality have no effect on those numbers.

Rates of many cancers are decreasing, not increasing. The absolute numbers of people with age related health problems increase because there are more people in those age groups. You can deny it all you want to but that is a fact.

Fact Sheet: Aging in the United States

"The number of Americans ages 65 and older is projected to more than double from 46 million today to over 98 million by 2060, and the 65-and-older age group’s share of the total population will rise to nearly 24 percent from 15 percent."

"Average U.S. life expectancy increased from 68 years in 1950 to 79 years in 2013, in large part due to the reduction in mortality at older ages."

Diabetes type 2 is a problem primarily because of obesity.

You have yet to provide sources for any of your opinions, including this one:

"When average lifespan was much shorter than it is now, people who survived childhood were likely to get old. And getting old did not result in the high rates of cancer, etc., we have now."

Either cite something to support that statement or quit saying it. Also, please learn what an incidence rate is.
 
Old 11-11-2017, 03:45 AM
 
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I wonder how much of the increase in recent years is due to patients being maintained on life support.
 
Old 11-11-2017, 08:11 AM
 
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"Lifestyle and environmental toxins are MAJOR factors. As you know, but you hate to admit."

No one in their right mind will deny this.. even the modern medicine voodoo doctors.
 
Old 11-11-2017, 11:05 AM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,397,561 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jinhou View Post
"Lifestyle and environmental toxins are MAJOR factors. As you know, but you hate to admit."

No one in their right mind will deny this.. even the modern medicine voodoo doctors.
Ok, but ... we are constantly hearing that cancer, heart disease, dementia, etc., have increased because we are living longer, and we are living longer because we are healthier thanks to recent medical advances.

We are hearing that because that's what the medical industry wants us to think. By "medical industry," I mean the big companies that provide drugs, medical technology, etc. Sure, they like us to believe the increase in these diseases is a result of their success, not of their failure.

When people make this statement -- that certain diseases are increasing because we live longer -- they never qualify it by saying there could be other factors as well.

It may be true that people whose lives have been saved by medical interventions, who are not very healthy are surviving longer and getting Alzheimer's, cancer, etc. For example, if someone with diabetes 2 survived a heart attack because of surgery, and did not improve their lifestyle, they might be vulnerable to Alzheimer's, cancer, etc., because they still have diabetes.

However, the major causes for the increase in these diseases is probably the modern lifestyle, and toxins in the air, water and food.

For example, I live in an area where it is well-known that there are carcinogenic substances in the water, and cancer rates are very high. There are probably many other areas with a similar problem.

And Americans have a very high rate of physical inactivity and obesity. It is well-known that these contribute to chronic diseases.

So continue repeating that we Americans are sicker because we are healthier, and we are healthier thanks to the new drugs and medical technology. Continue believing that is the main reason, because it makes you feel happy, and it means you don't have to worry about your lifestyle or the environment.
 
Old 11-11-2017, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,032 posts, read 41,094,361 times
Reputation: 44970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Ok, but ... we are constantly hearing that cancer, heart disease, dementia, etc., have increased because we are living longer, and we are living longer because we are healthier thanks to recent medical advances.

We are hearing that because that's what the medical industry wants us to think. By "medical industry," I mean the big companies that provide drugs, medical technology, etc. Sure, they like us to believe the increase in these diseases is a result of their success, not of their failure.

When people make this statement -- that certain diseases are increasing because we live longer -- they never qualify it by saying there could be other factors as well.

It may be true that people whose lives have been saved by medical interventions, who are not very healthy are surviving longer and getting Alzheimer's, cancer, etc. For example, if someone with diabetes 2 survived a heart attack because of surgery, and did not improve their lifestyle, they might be vulnerable to Alzheimer's, cancer, etc., because they still have diabetes.

However, the major causes for the increase in these diseases is probably the modern lifestyle, and toxins in the air, water and food.

For example, I live in an area where it is well-known that there are carcinogenic substances in the water, and cancer rates are very high. There are probably many other areas with a similar problem.

And Americans have a very high rate of physical inactivity and obesity. It is well-known that these contribute to chronic diseases.

So continue repeating that we Americans are sicker because we are healthier, and we are healthier thanks to the new drugs and medical technology. Continue believing that is the main reason, because it makes you feel happy, and it means you don't have to worry about your lifestyle or the environment.
You just keep believing that the reason we are seeing larger numbers of people with diseases that are more common in older age groups is not because we have more people in older age groups.

The reason we have more people in older age groups is because they are not dying younger, due to medical advances. That includes counselling about better lifestyle choices. That some people choose not to make lifestyle changes is not the fault of medicine.

I find it hard to believe that your community water supply contains any more "carcinogenic substances" than supplies elsewhere. What do you mean by "cancer rates? What cancers? I note that despite multiple requests you continue to refuse to provide sources for your claims.

Provide references to support this statement:

"However, the major causes for the increase in these diseases is probably the modern lifestyle, and toxins in the air, water and food."
 
Old 11-11-2017, 10:39 PM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,397,561 times
Reputation: 6062
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
You just keep believing that the reason we are seeing larger numbers of people with diseases that are more common in older age groups is not because we have more people in older age groups.

The reason we have more people in older age groups is because they are not dying younger, due to medical advances. That includes counselling about better lifestyle choices. That some people choose not to make lifestyle changes is not the fault of medicine.
You just keep repeating that. Where is your evidence?

I explained very carefully some other obvious factors.

You insist that these diseases naturally occur at these rates with increasing age. I have explained that these rates do not occur in pre-industrial societies. I provided links to articles showing that in some societies older people are unlikely to get these diseases.

I have given very good reasons for doubting the statement you keep repeating like a broken record. But you ignore everything I carefully explain and repeat it once again. Without evidence.
 
Old 11-11-2017, 10:58 PM
 
30,876 posts, read 36,858,638 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
People also use that statistic as evidence that modern medicine has a major role in keeping us healthy.

I tried to explain in an earlier thread why the statement needs to be analyzed and questioned. Unfortunately, some commenters completely failed to understand what I wrote. Probably because they don't want to understand it. In my opinion, health is not getting better and better thanks to medical advances. Certain things are helped by advancing surgical technology (knee replacements, etc.).

But in general, many Americans are in bad health and it's probably getting worse.
Yes, I agree with that.

Modern medicine is insanely expensive and inefficient and has long passed the point where it's doing much to push up life expectancy. America now spends over $1 Trillion a year on treating diseases that are largely preventable.

Way, way, way, too much emphasis on cleaning up health disasters after people get sick and very little emphasis on preventing problems before they start. Everyone seems to know this, but then we all go right back to doing all the unhealthy things that lead to early disability, chronic illness, and premature death.

Fortunately, there is a way out--and it has little to do with more pills and treatments. It turns out the world's healthy populations use relatively little modern medicine.

Dan Buettner leads the way in pushing communities to make the changes that lead to a healthier way of life. In the first video, he explains the crux of our unhealthy lifestyle and why it's so hard for people to change on an individual basis. In the second, he shows an example of what one community did to make it easier to live healthy lifestyles without being dictatorial or draconian:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waGHi6aMzh8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so_1etvOJiw
 
Old 11-12-2017, 04:54 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
37,032 posts, read 41,094,361 times
Reputation: 44970
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
You just keep repeating that. Where is your evidence?

I explained very carefully some other obvious factors.

You insist that these diseases naturally occur at these rates with increasing age. I have explained that these rates do not occur in pre-industrial societies. I provided links to articles showing that in some societies older people are unlikely to get these diseases.

I have given very good reasons for doubting the statement you keep repeating like a broken record. But you ignore everything I carefully explain and repeat it once again. Without evidence.
No, I do not insist that "these diseases naturally occur at these rates with increasing age".

What I say is that because there are more people in older age groups there are more people with diseases that are more common in older age groups. We know there are more people in older age groups because they can be counted. Have you ever heard of the Federal Census? They are reaching older ages because of advances in medical care - advances that are prolonging lives despite some people not living the healthiest of lifestyles.

You have explained nothing about "pre-industrial societies," and you have been shown that your idea of some health utopia in past eons is an absolute fantasy. I - and other posters here - have provided references. The only references you have given are to the "blue zones" - and people in those geographic areas have access to medical care. None of them are "pre-industrial societies".
 
Old 11-12-2017, 01:35 PM
 
8,192 posts, read 3,397,561 times
Reputation: 6062
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Yes, I agree with that.

Modern medicine is insanely expensive and inefficient and has long passed the point where it's doing much to push up life expectancy. America now spends over $1 Trillion a year on treating diseases that are largely preventable.

Way, way, way, too much emphasis on cleaning up health disasters after people get sick and very little emphasis on preventing problems before they start. Everyone seems to know this, but then we all go right back to doing all the unhealthy things that lead to early disability, chronic illness, and premature death.
One reason people ignore sensible lifestyle advice is the statement some people here insist on repeating, and will not question! They think the modern lifestyle diseases are increasing mainly because we are living longer, and that we are living longer because of medical interventions.

It isn't true! And it gives people an excuse for continuing their unhealthy lifestyle! They are led to believe that medical advances will restore them to health.

That is why I started this thread, hoping some of them might listen and question the medical industry's advertising campaign.
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