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Old 03-20-2018, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
11,494 posts, read 9,556,213 times
Reputation: 7622

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
They bought your compliance (with their paranoia) with money/job. There is a term for this. Check.

A drug that can stop seizures in their tracks, when NOTHING ELSE works, is NOT a wonder drug? A drug that can starve tumors is NOT a wonder drug? Check.

Paranoia as a side effect of cannabis use is a problem for FIRST TIME users, not for anyone who knows what they are doing. A guide, who you trust and can calm those fears, can handle that. Check.

It's not wise to spit against the wind, and yet you do. Check.

You certainly don't sound like you are for some happy medium. Anyone who reads what you've said and read you anactdoal stories can see that you are biased in the opposite direction than the country is going now. Check.

If a law deserves respect it should get it, but a law founded on racism gets and deserves no respect. You don't seem to understand the difference between drug laws, founded in racism, and traffic laws established for public safety. Check.

Whether you agree that cannabis is non-toxic or not doesn't matter. It's the truth, based on science, and people on both sides of the debate agree with the science on that.

Your turn.
I have no problems with you if you want to start a thread on marijuana and stopping seizures in their tracks or marijuana to fight nausea or whatever. You present your evidence/studies and let people dispute those findings or not. That way we can accomplish something or not.

As far as first time users and guides: Our little group, with my one little paranoid encounter years ago, was simply very lucky that we caught the one young woman starting to jump out the window. We happened to be at the right place at the right time - but we could very easily missed it. We were very lucky; otherwise it would have ended up as a tragedy (for all of us). Guides are not always professionals or do they now require straight jackets for all first time users?

As far as spitting against the wind: I am just asking people to look before they leap. And to also question if they really want to escape. They could very easily be better off on their own.

As far as 'anecdotal expressions' they are based on my actual experiences. I have been around for some time; I'm not new on the block. I did not tell you this one before because I cannot defiantly prove it was pot related: We had a young maintenance man that came to work high most mornings and was always discussing the newest weed on the block. One day he came to work and was supposed to change a 440 amp breaker on a 880 amp service when he shorted it out. The flash/explosion threw him ten feet backwards and right through two steel doors. He was very lucky; he survived but lost all the hair on his arms and most of his facial hair was singed - not to mention being extremely sore for weeks. I will not tell anybody on here that was defiantly from the distraction of marijuana - I cannot prove it. But when you are fooling around with something that dangerous; you need all of your facilities. If you make contact, with something you are not supposed to make contact with, it can very easily be lethal.

We do not get to pick and choose laws. If our laws are unjust you fight to change them or you support organizations that do the fighting for you. That is how our system works. Just because many states have jumped on the legalization movement; does not mean that all states are on board. It isn't only that; but many states have laws that are slightly different than other states. It is not inconceivable that our Federal regulations will change in the future - they could; especially with today's attitudes. However it is one thing to fight and change; it is another thing to pardon for laws that were broken in the past (it can happen; but there is no guarantee). It would be foolish and unwise to encourage others to break our laws because you or others feel they are unjust. In many states it still would be justification to search a vehicle if pot was in the open and that could lead to other charges. Why would you want to subject anybody to that?

Take your science into court with the proper representation and fight the laws. You do not have to change my mind (I am entitled to my opinions); you need to change laws and regulations. There is at least one organization fighting to change our laws NORMAL. In my State it only takes, I quote: "Under Pennsylvania's law, motorists with detectable levels of THC in the blood above 1ng/ml (reduced from 5ng/ml on April 30, 2011) are guilty of DUID." from: Pennsylvania Drugged Driving - NORML.org - Working to Reform Marijuana Laws. If you take notice the amount of THC in your blood has been reduced, instead of increased. You could be winning battles; but losing the war.
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Old 03-20-2018, 06:07 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
15,412 posts, read 4,587,632 times
Reputation: 45296
No one should drive high or come to work high and no one is advocating that this is a good thing. Your coworker sounds like a dumbass, if you don't mind my saying so. No wonder you have such a low opinion of cannabis users.

I fully support tests to determine if a driver is impaired by THC. THC tests do exist now, but they cannot determine how recently a person has used it, which makes any statistics about drugged driving meaningless. That is because THC stays in the body for weeks (please note that this doesn't mean a THC high lasts for weeks, only that THC can still be detected in blood or urine samples even though the person may be 100% stone cold sober). The tests still need to be invented that will measure current use and impairment. Until then, any statistics about highway deaths are meaningless because it's not possible to know whether the driver was actually under the influence at the time of the crash.

In my opinion an experienced adult cannabis user is capable of functioning safely in some types of jobs and even driving safely. I'd much rather be in a car with someone who smoked a joint than someone who was drunk. But for the safety of the general public, I believe that the laws about buzzed driving need to be strictly enforced, and I support drug testing at work for positions that involve public health and safety.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:22 AM
 
969 posts, read 852,931 times
Reputation: 1448
Default Here we go again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
I have no problems with you if you want to start a thread on marijuana and stopping seizures in their tracks or marijuana to fight nausea or whatever. You present your evidence/studies and let people dispute those findings or not. That way we can accomplish something or not.

As far as first time users and guides: Our little group, with my one little paranoid encounter years ago, was simply very lucky that we caught the one young woman starting to jump out the window. We happened to be at the right place at the right time - but we could very easily missed it. We were very lucky; otherwise it would have ended up as a tragedy (for all of us). Guides are not always professionals or do they now require straight jackets for all first time users?

As far as spitting against the wind: I am just asking people to look before they leap. And to also question if they really want to escape. They could very easily be better off on their own.

As far as 'anecdotal expressions' they are based on my actual experiences. I have been around for some time; I'm not new on the block. I did not tell you this one before because I cannot defiantly prove it was pot related: We had a young maintenance man that came to work high most mornings and was always discussing the newest weed on the block. One day he came to work and was supposed to change a 440 amp breaker on a 880 amp service when he shorted it out. The flash/explosion threw him ten feet backwards and right through two steel doors. He was very lucky; he survived but lost all the hair on his arms and most of his facial hair was singed - not to mention being extremely sore for weeks. I will not tell anybody on here that was defiantly from the distraction of marijuana - I cannot prove it. But when you are fooling around with something that dangerous; you need all of your facilities. If you make contact, with something you are not supposed to make contact with, it can very easily be lethal.

We do not get to pick and choose laws. If our laws are unjust you fight to change them or you support organizations that do the fighting for you. That is how our system works. Just because many states have jumped on the legalization movement; does not mean that all states are on board. It isn't only that; but many states have laws that are slightly different than other states. It is not inconceivable that our Federal regulations will change in the future - they could; especially with today's attitudes. However it is one thing to fight and change; it is another thing to pardon for laws that were broken in the past (it can happen; but there is no guarantee). It would be foolish and unwise to encourage others to break our laws because you or others feel they are unjust. In many states it still would be justification to search a vehicle if pot was in the open and that could lead to other charges. Why would you want to subject anybody to that?

Take your science into court with the proper representation and fight the laws. You do not have to change my mind (I am entitled to my opinions); you need to change laws and regulations. There is at least one organization fighting to change our laws NORMAL. In my State it only takes, I quote: "Under Pennsylvania's law, motorists with detectable levels of THC in the blood above 1ng/ml (reduced from 5ng/ml on April 30, 2011) are guilty of DUID." from: Pennsylvania Drugged Driving - NORML.org - Working to Reform Marijuana Laws. If you take notice the amount of THC in your blood has been reduced, instead of increased. You could be winning battles; but losing the war.

The evidence of the use of cannabis for shrinking tumors and reducing or eliminating seizures is well documented in main stream media and peer reviewed studies. This use is already been approved for use in the EU for a number of years and is currently undergoing FDA's approval process for use here. It's a scientific fact, people don't get to decide which facts are true. Oh wait, I guess in the era of Trump I have to retract that statement, but in "normal times" that would be valid. May we someday return to normal. I guess you must live in some media desert in your little town in PA. I lived in Philadelphia for more than 10 years, California for more than 10 years and near or in New York City for 20 years, and Connecticut for 21 years, so I've been around the block a few times myself, but apparently we have been going around different blocks, very different blocks...


See, if you knew ANYTHING about what you are attempting to talk about, you'd know how ridiculous it would be for someone to be put in a straight jacket to try marijuana for the first time. You are seriously delirious - or you're just pulling my leg. I know prohibitionists (and many politicos') like to treat cannabis like it is radioactive and needs all kinds of regulations (beyond what is sensible, seed to sale laws come to mind) but really, you go way too far to be taken seriously. If any of your group was being a responsible guide they would have: not partaken of the weed that day. Had kept a close eye on the newbee and would have been hovering around them to catch any panicked behavior. Somebody dropped the ball - you?


I believe, your stories are true, but they really don't count toward any fact based discussion because they have no scientific validity, so while entertaining, not relevant. I am glad to hear that the lady in question survived. There was an underage newbie in Las Vegas who ate an entire edible, despite the warning on the package and despite it was an illegal act (because he was under 21) but he made a personal decision to flout the law and the warnings of the manufacturer, and did not have a responsible guide present so...like the idiot that you described at your work - you can't fix stupid, but sometimes stupid fixes itself.


Of course we get to pick and choose what laws we follow! If not, then all those people passing me on the highway are being Forced, by apparently unseen evil forces, to go faster than the speed limit??!


No., it is not foolish or unwise is try to circumvent unjust laws. I guess in your eyes the underground railroad was a bunch of delusional foolish and unwise Yankees?


Typical clueless (or smart as a fox) prohibitionist admonition, "if you don't like a law, get it changed." Right! If you've ever tried to get a law changed, particularly in states without referendum procedures, it is very expensive and takes a lot of time and resources. You are basically reduced to begging legislatures that are already bought and sold by special interests, like big Pharma - which has a very high concentration in New Jersey. That is the reality. Otherwise the war on drugs would have been defeated 40 or 50 years ago. Sure, law firms write "suggested" laws for legislatures all the time sponsored by their big pocket clients, but the average citizen, or citizens group, does not have access to that kind of money and power.


Many scientists and notable persons way smarter than me have presented legislators and the DEA with the scientific facts that we know about cannabis based on the more than 22,000 studies done to date - THEY IGNORE IT. In one instance the DEA took 20 years to respond (negatively) to a request to study a specific aspect of the plant. I'm old and sick with an illness that will eventually be terminal if something else doesn't get me first, I don't have that kind of time.


Police also get to pick and choose laws, otherwise how do you explain that they sometimes give warnings and other times give tickets for the exact same behavior? They have discretion and they use it. Same with judges - when they are not dealing with mandatory minimums, a favorite with the drug warrior types.


I never suggested that somebody should have cannabis in a car, whether in the open or not, so no, I'm not suggesting people do that, but you go ahead and keep trying to put words in my mouth. I'm for personal responsibility. You roll the dice and you take your chances in this unjust world.


Pennsylvania - outside of Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, the Arkansas of the North, reduced the amount of THC in your blood, without ANY SCIENTIFIC BASIS for that decision. Not surprising to me, and just one more reason why I left that backward state with a chip on it's shoulder.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
11,494 posts, read 9,556,213 times
Reputation: 7622
The young woman I mentioned had a responsible guide - her husband. Unfortunately he was too busy eating a three week old coffee cake my mother made for us and we would not touch with a ten foot pole. It was terrible and had thick mold on it - we were surprised it did not kill him! We had no sooner grabbed his wife and calmed her down when we realized he had helped himself to the dreaded cake and finished the whole thing!

What is it with you? You attack me and my State. My life experiences mean nothing because I have to worship every word you speak. Here is one more of my life experiences: Whenever somebody over zealously wants others to buy or use; they usually have a vested interest in the product. It's like a commercial to buy gold. There will always be winners and losers and the winners are the ones that talk the losers into losing.
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Old 03-22-2018, 02:38 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
15,412 posts, read 4,587,632 times
Reputation: 45296
The story about the woman who tried to jump out the window is getting more and more bizarre! Fisheye, you know some pretty weird people.

I agree with Beaconowner that the jump-out-the-window story is not in itself a convincing argument against cannabis. We have no idea what mental problems the young lady may have had, what other substances she may have used or whether the cannabis was laced with another drug. I personally have never heard of anyone becoming suicidal on cannabis, and for 50 years I've been around people who use it regularly.

Beaconowner's response to fisheye's comment about following the law is very wise, I think. When a law is stupid and outdated, it needs to be changed. The law prohibiting the sale of alcohol was a colossal failure and created more problems than it solved. Ending it was the right thing to do. Even the Federal government is catching on. They now acknowledge that cannabis indeed has medical benefits. You can read about it on the National Cancer Institute's website.

I believe it will be only a matter of time before the Federal prohibition on cannabis is lifted. But the social prejudices will live on. As with the end of slavery, you can pass a law immediately, but it takes generations for long-ingrained prejudices to fade.
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Old 03-22-2018, 06:12 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
11,494 posts, read 9,556,213 times
Reputation: 7622
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea4 View Post
The story about the woman who tried to jump out the window is getting more and more bizarre! Fisheye, you know some pretty weird people.

I agree with Beaconowner that the jump-out-the-window story is not in itself a convincing argument against cannabis. We have no idea what mental problems the young lady may have had, what other substances she may have used or whether the cannabis was laced with another drug. I personally have never heard of anyone becoming suicidal on cannabis, and for 50 years I've been around people who use it regularly.

Beaconowner's response to fisheye's comment about following the law is very wise, I think. When a law is stupid and outdated, it needs to be changed. The law prohibiting the sale of alcohol was a colossal failure and created more problems than it solved. Ending it was the right thing to do. Even the Federal government is catching on. They now acknowledge that cannabis indeed has medical benefits. You can read about it on the National Cancer Institute's website.

I believe it will be only a matter of time before the Federal prohibition on cannabis is lifted. But the social prejudices will live on. As with the end of slavery, you can pass a law immediately, but it takes generations for long-ingrained prejudices to fade.
All I am doing is relaying my personal experiences. All I knew about what that young woman used was that her husband was growing their own. I think it was her first time; but it might not have been? As far as her mental state: back then she was a bank teller that eventually became an insurance agent (because she was stopped from jumping out that window). I think that was the only time that we ever saw her high; she never used after that experience. We were friends with her until about 20 years ago when we gave up smoking tobacco and could no longer stand the smell of our old, tobacco smoking, friends plus it made it so much harder to quit.

I disagree with you on Beaconowner's response to my comment on following our laws. It isn't that I do not feel, like some of you, that the laws are unjust. There are legal ways to fight unjust laws; like NORMAL (NORML.org - Working to Reform Marijuana Laws - NORML.org - Working to Reform Marijuana Laws). To encourage anybody to break our laws is immoral - would you want to be personally responsible for somebody spending time in jail and having a criminal record for the rest of their lives? Like I said before; even if our laws would be changed it does not guarantee a pardon for those that currently break our laws. You can encourage people to legally fight battles against what you consider unjust (support NORMAL and peaceful protest).

You know that even Colorado has minimum jail sentences for people operating a vehicle while high: Colorado Drugged Driving - NORML.org - Working to Reform Marijuana Laws. They are not as harsh as PA laws because they have a higher threshold for THC. But they still give individuals a permanent record.

I am saying to not put the cart before the horse. Just because states are rethinking their laws and a new day is coming - it is not here now. There will always be some people that try to get ahead of the movement and they will pay the price. Everybody has to be aware of your own state laws and aware of the laws in any state or country where you plan to travel (just like gun laws).

For now; concentrate on the positive medical benefits that people can now enjoy within the bounds of the law. Change is coming; it just is not here yet.
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Old 03-22-2018, 03:36 PM
 
Location: NJ
674 posts, read 616,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
...
There is no proof that cannabis has ever caused a person with cardiac issues to die. Cannabis will raise hart rate and blood pressure, initially, but not enough to cause a problem.
Actually, marijuana lowers blood pressure. Google it. Or ask anyone that uses marijuana and has a blood pressure monitor at home.
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Old 03-23-2018, 10:38 AM
bg7
 
7,664 posts, read 7,143,843 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred44 View Post
Actually, marijuana lowers blood pressure. Google it. Or ask anyone that uses marijuana and has a blood pressure monitor at home.
You can't just "Google it" and get an answer unless you can discern what you are reading. Most of the hits you will get are self-interested marijuana sellers telling you what a miracle it is and treats every condition under the sun, or opinion pieces passed off as actual fact which are believed by the unwary.


Some people have actually gone out and looked it in a population (no anecdotes) - i.e. a real statistically tested study in around 12,000 subjects
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5237375/


Here's the conclusion - it increases systolic pressure but does not affect diastolic:


"Recently active cannabis use was associated with increase in systolic blood pressure (β = 1.6; 95% CI: 0.6, 2.7) in the age-sex adjusted model. Additional covariate adjustment did not affect the positive association. No association between cannabis use and diastolic blood pressure was detected."


It increased each day of use. However, it was a fairly small increase and the researchers suggest that what was more worrying, given the relatively young age of the subjects, was the increase in pulse pressure - which was more akin to that seen in older people with age-stiffened arteries.


The bottom line is marijuana, since it contains multiple active chemicals, will of course have some side effects - its whether the benefits outweigh the side effects. That depends in an individual's situation.
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Old 03-23-2018, 12:06 PM
Status: "Springtime in the Rockies" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
82,788 posts, read 95,236,514 times
Reputation: 29361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea4 View Post
Nobody's saying that cannabis is a miracle panacea or encouraging people to try it just for the sake of trying it. It has been well established that young people should not use it, and no one is advocating teen use (except those who need it for medical reasons, i.e. epileptics).

I've also lost a friend who was a heavy daily hash smoker, so I can sympathize with how you feel, fisheye. I don't believe smoking anything is ever a good idea even though some studies show that lung function is not affected and may even be improved with cannabis. Also, in those cases where a person has died after long-term cannabis use, there seems to always have been other factors involved, such as tobacco or alcohol or a chronic medical condition, which contributed to the death. But with legalization, many other forms of cannabis have become available such as vaping, tinctures and edibles, so nobody has to smoke it.

I disagree with your statement that we don't need more studies. The way things are now, U.S. universities and hospitals which receive Federal funding cannot do research as long as cannabis is Federally illegal. So there is much we still don't know about the benefits and risks of cannabis. Many of the good studies that now exist were done outside the U.S. where these restrictions don't exist.

It would be short-sighted, I think, to denigrate the benefits of cannabis simply because it has intoxicating side effects that people enjoy, and because people do use it recreationally. As beaconowner points out, people have been getting high since the dawn of mankind. Pleasure-seeking is a normal human behavior. Would you prefer that cannabis made you feel nauseous or caused other unpleasant side effects the way pharmaceutical drugs do? We have been conditioned to believe that medicine is supposed to taste bad, and there is a Puritan streak in the American psyche that whispers in our ears the guilty message that wanting to feel good is somehow shameful and that pain and suffering are somehow noble. It's time we evolved past that.

If a responsible adult wants to use cannabis for pleasure, so what? There's no downside other than temporary intoxication, and cannabinoids actually do have health benefits. I think that's a healthier choice than other legal substances people use to alter consciousness, such as tranquilizers and alcohol. Both of theses (separately and in combination) have caused infinitely more deaths than cannabis ever has or ever will.
You know, the funny thing (any definition of funny you want to use-humorous, ironic, odd, whatever) a study came out just last week that second-hand marijuana smoke is bad for a person. We can't seem to agree on the health effects of smoking it, but we can say second-hand is bad. Go figure. Frankly, it stands to reason, biologically, that anything one puts in their lungs is bad for the lungs. Improved lung function my derriere! I think that argument was used with tobacco 100 years ago or so as well.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ience-says-yes
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Old 03-23-2018, 04:13 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
15,412 posts, read 4,587,632 times
Reputation: 45296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
You know, the funny thing (any definition of funny you want to use-humorous, ironic, odd, whatever) a study came out just last week that second-hand marijuana smoke is bad for a person. We can't seem to agree on the health effects of smoking it, but we can say second-hand is bad. Go figure. Frankly, it stands to reason, biologically, that anything one puts in their lungs is bad for the lungs. Improved lung function my derriere! I think that argument was used with tobacco 100 years ago or so as well.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-...ience-says-yes
I agree. This is why it is so important for the Federal government to reclassify cannabis. As a Schedule I drug, it cannot be studied at institutions that receive Federal funds. What studies we do have, many of which are from other countries, are contradictory. It doesn't seem logical to me that any substance that is combusted and inhaled could be good for you. I personally don't smoke it.
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