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Old 03-11-2018, 07:45 PM
 
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Old 03-14-2018, 01:46 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Hmm, interesting. Thanks, JasmineBasmati! Cannabis is not for everyone, especially teens and pregnant women or people with cardiac or PTSD issues. That said, it has a lot of benefits and more will almost certainly be discovered as legalization becomes more widespread. But first the Federal government needs to take cannabis it off the list of Schedule I substances so that legitimate research can be done.
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Old 03-15-2018, 01:50 PM
 
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Default Well let's see...

PTSD is on the approved list for maladies that respond positively to Cannabis in some of the states where it is legal, so I don't think you are correct about PTSD.

Everybody gets their panties in a wad over anything a pregnant women does, so let's not got there.

Teens should not be using any drugs, legal or illegal, including alcohol, but we all know a percentage of them, including some of the very brightest, will experiment. At least if cannabis is legal and regulated it will be a little more difficult for them to get it, especially once price drops force illegal sellers out of the market. This is a problem that will take years to solve, but legalization and regulation is a much better approach than letting law enforcement do it which hasn't worked.

There is no proof that cannabis has ever caused a person with cardiac issues to die. Cannabis will raise hart rate and blood pressure, initially, but not enough to cause a problem.
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Old 03-16-2018, 03:07 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
PTSD is on the approved list for maladies that respond positively to Cannabis in some of the states where it is legal, so I don't think you are correct about PTSD.

Everybody gets their panties in a wad over anything a pregnant women does, so let's not got there.
Beaconowner, I stand corrected on PTSD. By coincidence I was just reading an article online from our local newspaper about a psychiatrist who has had wonderful results using cannabis for veterans with PTSD. It seems to work better than antidepressants or sedatives. That's a really hopeful development.

What I was getting at when I made the comment about PTSD is that one of the side effects of cannabis can be anxiety. Sativas are especially well-known for this. So a person who is prone to be anxious needs to be cautious about using cannabis and possibly avoid it altogether. I know this is true from my own personal experience.

Totally agree with you on teen drug use. Studies have shown that teens who start using it early are at risk for problems later on. Cannabis affects the brain, and their brains are not yet fully developed. Other than medical patients, only responsible adults should be using cannabis.

Maybe legalization will remove the thrill of getting away with something illegal that is so appealing to adolescents. Getting high might not seem so cool any more if their parents and grandparents are also doing it. "Just Say No" doesn't work, but maybe associating drug use with Grandpa will!

As for cardiac issues, racing heart can be a side effect of the THC in cannabis. How could this be good for anyone with heart trouble? My 77-year-old husband, for example. He takes a handful of pharmaceuticals daily for his cardiac, blood pressure and cholesterol issues. I wouldn't want him to use cannabis unless the doctor gave the OK, and even then I would start with microdoses and see how he tolerated it. I realize that cannabis alone can't kill you, but I have read credible reports in online journals that claim too much THC has been known to trigger fatal cardiac events in people with pre-existing heart disease.

There needs to be more serious scientific research into the risks and benefits of cannabis because there's so much we still don't know. That's the bottom line.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:30 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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The best drugs are no drugs; at least when it comes to tobacco, alcohol, marijuana! There is a lot of money at stake in illegal marijuana and a lot at stake with legal marijuana; somebody always stands to profit. I am tired of hearing arguments about all of the beneficial side effects while people ignore the escapism that attract so many to this drug. If this drug has true medical benefits; simply focus on those benefits - it's not a 'cure' for life. There are some out here that would sell you the Brooklyn Bridge simply to line their pockets.

I just worry that we have so much pressure to legalize and place this drug on a pedestal. I am afraid that our young will see this as acceptance. I am also afraid that this is simply one more nail in the coffin of those with addictive personalities - I have known a few. I also feel this has no place on our busy roads or in the workplace.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:57 AM
 
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Default Well here's my take on it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
The best drugs are no drugs; at least when it comes to tobacco, alcohol, marijuana! There is a lot of money at stake in illegal marijuana and a lot at stake with legal marijuana; somebody always stands to profit. I am tired of hearing arguments about all of the beneficial side effects while people ignore the escapism that attract so many to this drug. If this drug has true medical benefits; simply focus on those benefits - it's not a 'cure' for life. There are some out here that would sell you the Brooklyn Bridge simply to line their pockets.

I just worry that we have so much pressure to legalize and place this drug on a pedestal. I am afraid that our young will see this as acceptance. I am also afraid that this is simply one more nail in the coffin of those with addictive personalities - I have known a few. I also feel this has no place on our busy roads or in the workplace.
It's a fact that drugs (and that includes alcohol) have their place in society, both medical and recreational. You may not like it, but it has always been that way, and likely always will be. The earliest societies all created some type of fermented beverage, usually a type of beer. Escapism is what all of these drugs are about recreationally, whether it's "to take the edge off", with a beer or a toke, the purpose is the same.


There have been over 22,000 studies of cannabis and it has been used for more than 5,000 years, so we actually do know a lot. certainly enough to know that arrest and incarceration are neither warranted, nor effective methods to prohibit it.


I think the jury has come to a verdict on whether cannabis aka marijuana has medical benefits and the jury says absolutely. You may not know it, but the US government has a patent on using it for medical use and synthetic THC, the active ingredient in marijuana that gives you the high, has been available by prescription for decades.


There is pressure to legalize this drug because it's prohibition was purely political and affects minorities the most - which is exactly what was intended when it was prohibited. It is also non-toxic and is no more addictive then coffee. I haven't seen anyone put cannabis on any pedestal, but I have seen a lot of misinformation about it.


About young people - here's a clue - they are likely to be far more knowledgeable than you are about this subject and they have very developed bull**** meters. For the most part they don't look to adults, beyond their parents, to know how they feel, and sometimes they are very aware that their parents don't tell the truth, but rather are actually telling them their fears.


All legalization efforts are aimed at adults over 21, so children will still be banned from using it legally if it becomes legal in your area. Illegal dealers do not card teens, but legal dealers will, and no sale will be the result.


Of course, no drug that impairs you in the least should be on our roadways, or in SOME work places. If you're a mouse navigator working in a cubicle, it is unlikely your giggling or Cheetos habit is going to affect anyone other than you. If you are working in construction, you could hurt many others so, you should be clean. Employers still can hide behind federal law and drug test their employees, even after legalization in all states, so far.


There is now a swab test that is starting to be used that can detect cannabis use within about 2 to 3 hours. This is not a test for impairment, only use. However, police and employers have always had the ability to conduct sobriety tests, and these are the true definitive tests for the inability to do a task.


Also consider that regardless of legality, drugs of all types are everywhere, so you can be sure that high risk taking personalities are already on the roadways in large numbers and they are using all kinds of drugs in their cars, not to mention the drunks, and people using or abusing prescription drugs who are also driving, the cell phone addicts and the truck drivers on "roofies".


Once legalization happens, more lower risk drivers may use and drive, but that isn't too likely. Low risk personalities tend to follow the rules, so I would not expect a big uptick in impaired drivers if it becomes legal in your area, but I would expect more enforcement, since the police will not be wasting their time on simple possession arrests. I'm more worried about the teen to 30 something driver behind me rear-ending my car, because they just can't leave their phone alone while driving.


Another thing about the video that is completely bogus is the assertion that up to 50% of cannabis's daily users will become addicts. Even the US government says 9%, a number that is frequently quoted by both sides of this issue, although I think the methodology used by the feds inflated even that number.
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Old 03-16-2018, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
It's a fact that drugs (and that includes alcohol) have their place in society, both medical and recreational. You may not like it, but it has always been that way, and likely always will be. The earliest societies all created some type of fermented beverage, usually a type of beer. Escapism is what all of these drugs are about recreationally, whether it's "to take the edge off", with a beer or a toke, the purpose is the same.
People do not have to escape to survive. If that was the case none of us would be here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
There have been over 22,000 studies of cannabis and it has been used for more than 5,000 years, so we actually do know a lot. certainly enough to know that arrest and incarceration are neither warranted, nor effective methods to prohibit it.
I really do not care about the last 5,000 years; they did not have cars or trucks or many of our dangerous and demanding jobs we have today. Only the last 100 or two hundred are really important when you consider modern society and what we expect out of others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
I think the jury has come to a verdict on whether cannabis aka marijuana has medical benefits and the jury says absolutely. You may not know it, but the US government has a patent on using it for medical use and synthetic THC, the active ingredient in marijuana that gives you the high, has been available by prescription for decades.
Yes; but not every person in America has a condition that marijuana will improve. It is not for everybody. Definitely it is not for people driving or operating machinery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
There is pressure to legalize this drug because it's prohibition was purely political and affects minorities the most - which is exactly what was intended when it was prohibited. It is also non-toxic and is no more addictive then coffee. I haven't seen anyone put cannabis on any pedestal, but I have seen a lot of misinformation about it.
As far as misinformation; I would just like to make one post on marijuana that somebody leaves without immediately debating. It is like I launched a personal attack on the industry for stating that humans can survive without tobacco, alcohol or marijuana! You know it is possible that humans can survive (with the exception of a little caffeine)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
About young people - here's a clue - they are likely to be far more knowledgeable than you are about this subject and they have very developed bull**** meters. For the most part they don't look to adults, beyond their parents, to know how they feel, and sometimes they are very aware that their parents don't tell the truth, but rather are actually telling them their fears.
What do I know; I have only lived 71 years and was in the military when Nam was going on. I had a brother-in-law and a friend's son that both died in their early 50's. I will not blame their deaths totally on marijuana; because they used other drugs, tobacco and alcohol. But both of them were heavy pot users from the time I first met them. They worked only enough to survive and they had no goals in life other than to get high. They both had addictive personalities and pot was part of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
All legalization efforts are aimed at adults over 21, so children will still be banned from using it legally if it becomes legal in your area. Illegal dealers do not card teens, but legal dealers will, and no sale will be the result.
From the studies I have seen on more young using I would disagree or at least state that you have to wait for more studies and information. One study after another is coming out of the information collected on Colorado's use of pot by their young. One report will state the opposite of the last report and it is difficult to know how much money is influencing these reports. My feeling (that is not a study) is that the more we expose our young to pot; the more they will use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
Of course, no drug that impairs you in the least should be on our roadways, or in SOME work places. If you're a mouse navigator working in a cubicle, it is unlikely your giggling or Cheetos habit is going to affect anyone other than you. If you are working in construction, you could hurt many others so, you should be clean. Employers still can hide behind federal law and drug test their employees, even after legalization in all states, so far.
And I hope they continue to 'hide' behind Federal law. Your side and our Government cannot even reach a compromise on how much TCH is too much. I agree that our Federal limits are far too low. But, many on your side, want no restrictions at all. I just feel we rushed into this without the proper ground rules.

[quote=Beaconowner;51326908]There is now a swab test that is starting to be used that can detect cannabis use within about 2 to 3 hours. This is not a test for impairment, only use. However, police and employers have always had the ability to conduct sobriety tests, and these are the true definitive tests for the inability to do a task.

The swab test is not widely accepted or do we have the proper standard for the amount of THC legally accepted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
Also consider that regardless of legality, drugs of all types are everywhere, so you can be sure that high risk taking personalities are already on the roadways in large numbers and they are using all kinds of drugs in their cars, not to mention the drunks, and people using or abusing prescription drugs who are also driving, the cell phone addicts and the truck drivers on "roofies".
So two wrongs make a right? Argue that with somebody that loses a loved one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
Once legalization happens, more lower risk drivers may use and drive, but that isn't too likely. Low risk personalities tend to follow the rules, so I would not expect a big uptick in impaired drivers if it becomes legal in your area, but I would expect more enforcement, since the police will not be wasting their time on simple possession arrests. I'm more worried about the teen to 30 something driver behind me rear-ending my car, because they just can't leave their phone alone while driving.
Cell phones are a distraction and marijuana is a distraction. Another two wrongs do not make a right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaconowner View Post
Another thing about the video that is completely bogus is the assertion that up to 50% of cannabis's daily users will become addicts. Even the US government says 9%, a number that is frequently quoted by both sides of this issue, although I think the methodology used by the feds inflated even that number.
We have a major opioid problem in America right now. Lets pretend that our Federal government, that is wrong on everything else according to pot users, is right about the 9%. If we would legalize it in every state it is possible that half our population could use this drug. that would still be somewhere between 10 to 15 million people with problems.

To me it is like we hate our fellow man and will do anything and everything to help him destroy himself. I just do not feel this is wise.

Let the people that need this drug, to help ease their pain and suffering; use the drug. But do not claim it is not without risk and never encourage others to try just for the sake of trying.
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Old 03-16-2018, 05:58 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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Originally Posted by fisheye View Post

Let the people that need this drug, to help ease their pain and suffering; use the drug. But do not claim it is not without risk and never encourage others to try just for the sake of trying.
Nobody's saying that cannabis is a miracle panacea or encouraging people to try it just for the sake of trying it. It has been well established that young people should not use it, and no one is advocating teen use (except those who need it for medical reasons, i.e. epileptics).

I've also lost a friend who was a heavy daily hash smoker, so I can sympathize with how you feel, fisheye. I don't believe smoking anything is ever a good idea even though some studies show that lung function is not affected and may even be improved with cannabis. Also, in those cases where a person has died after long-term cannabis use, there seems to always have been other factors involved, such as tobacco or alcohol or a chronic medical condition, which contributed to the death. But with legalization, many other forms of cannabis have become available such as vaping, tinctures and edibles, so nobody has to smoke it.

I disagree with your statement that we don't need more studies. The way things are now, U.S. universities and hospitals which receive Federal funding cannot do research as long as cannabis is Federally illegal. So there is much we still don't know about the benefits and risks of cannabis. Many of the good studies that now exist were done outside the U.S. where these restrictions don't exist.

It would be short-sighted, I think, to denigrate the benefits of cannabis simply because it has intoxicating side effects that people enjoy, and because people do use it recreationally. As beaconowner points out, people have been getting high since the dawn of mankind. Pleasure-seeking is a normal human behavior. Would you prefer that cannabis made you feel nauseous or caused other unpleasant side effects the way pharmaceutical drugs do? We have been conditioned to believe that medicine is supposed to taste bad, and there is a Puritan streak in the American psyche that whispers in our ears the guilty message that wanting to feel good is somehow shameful and that pain and suffering are somehow noble. It's time we evolved past that.

If a responsible adult wants to use cannabis for pleasure, so what? There's no downside other than temporary intoxication, and cannabinoids actually do have health benefits. I think that's a healthier choice than other legal substances people use to alter consciousness, such as tranquilizers and alcohol. Both of theses (separately and in combination) have caused infinitely more deaths than cannabis ever has or ever will.
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Old 03-16-2018, 07:46 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bayarea4 View Post
Nobody's saying that cannabis is a miracle panacea or encouraging people to try it just for the sake of trying it. It has been well established that young people should not use it, and no one is advocating teen use (except those who need it for medical reasons, i.e. epileptics).

I've also lost a friend who was a heavy daily hash smoker, so I can sympathize with how you feel, fisheye. I don't believe smoking anything is ever a good idea even though some studies show that lung function is not affected and may even be improved with cannabis. Also, in those cases where a person has died after long-term cannabis use, there seems to always have been other factors involved, such as tobacco or alcohol or a chronic medical condition, which contributed to the death. But with legalization, many other forms of cannabis have become available such as vaping, tinctures and edibles, so nobody has to smoke it.

I disagree with your statement that we don't need more studies. The way things are now, U.S. universities and hospitals which receive Federal funding cannot do research as long as cannabis is Federally illegal. So there is much we still don't know about the benefits and risks of cannabis. Many of the good studies that now exist were done outside the U.S. where these restrictions don't exist.

It would be short-sighted, I think, to denigrate the benefits of cannabis simply because it has intoxicating side effects that people enjoy, and because people do use it recreationally. As beaconowner points out, people have been getting high since the dawn of mankind. Pleasure-seeking is a normal human behavior. Would you prefer that cannabis made you feel nauseous or caused other unpleasant side effects the way pharmaceutical drugs do? We have been conditioned to believe that medicine is supposed to taste bad, and there is a Puritan streak in the American psyche that whispers in our ears the guilty message that wanting to feel good is somehow shameful and that pain and suffering are somehow noble. It's time we evolved past that.

If a responsible adult wants to use cannabis for pleasure, so what? There's no downside other than temporary intoxication, and cannabinoids actually do have health benefits. I think that's a healthier choice than other legal substances people use to alter consciousness, such as tranquilizers and alcohol. Both of theses (separately and in combination) have caused infinitely more deaths than cannabis ever has or ever will.
To me the legalization would not be that bad if they did not push acceptance at the same time. Years ago we had the Cheech and Chong movies; but they were societal outcast. Today movies and TV are portraying societal acceptance and it is inserted not to add to the plot of the movie; but to portray people that don't use as the outcast.

This is not for everybody. When we were much younger my wife's best friend was so high that she became paranoid and tried to jump out the window. We stopped her and stayed with her until her fears slowly went away. We are all humans and not every one of us is the same. Just because I have one reaction to a drug does not mean that you will have exactly the same reaction.

It isn't only that; but people can overlook one side effect in favor of another pleasurable side effect. let's say that you have cancer in your bones and the chemotherapy makes you nauseated. So you take marijuana to help with the nausea and increase your appetite. However; marijuana can make you dizzy. If you have weak bones from the cancer and you fall; you now have much more pain and suffering than from the nausea. I have never seen one claim that marijuana strengthens your bones.

Too much of anything can injure or kill you; even water. In the 1960's and 1970's the TCH levels were around 6% to 8%. Today some of the THC levels can be as high as 51% and they are still racing to get even higher yields. How do we test, how much is too much; there are many unanswered questions with the direction we are headed. I just wished those questions had been answered before we started legalizing.
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Old 03-16-2018, 08:12 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
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I’m not understanding how acceptance of cannabis is somehow wrong but acceptance of known lethal substances such as alcohol and tobacco is OK.
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