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Old 04-03-2018, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371

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Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
[B]So the ONLY way to encounter any pathogen is to get a vaccine?[/b]

OMG. Seriously. Seriously. GO take a basic biology course.

If we lived by your theory ... we'd all be DEAD. Right now, dropped down dead.

Why do think all those kids survived all those childhood diseases? Their immune systems were making antibodies.

Please do some research. Good GAWD. Start here.

Biology for Kids: Immune System

Antigens and Antibodies

Scientists call the invaders that can cause disease antigens. Antigens trigger an immune response in the body. One of the main immune responses is the production of proteins that help to fight off the antigens. These proteins are called antibodies.

How do the antibodies know which cells to attack?

In order to work properly, the immune system must know which cells are good cells and which are bad. Antibodies are designed with specific binding sites that only bind with certain antigens. They ignore "good" cells and only attack the bad ones.
Where did I say that? Yes, if you haven't had a flu shot, and encounter the antigen "naturally", your immune system will likely respond as suzy described. You'll get sick. You might be hospitalized. You might die.

I've taken far more biology than you obviously have.

The non-survivors of childhood diseases aren't here posting. In my own childhood, and until I was about 14 years old, 450-500 kids died every year from measles. None of them are posting here, nor are their descendents, as they didn't live long enough to reproduce. And so on with the other "usual childhood diseases" of the first half of the 20th century.

Quit being so insulting while you're at it. It makes you look small.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:43 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,482 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26430
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
So you want to compare a disease that struck during a time where there was no indoor plumbing, no sanitation, no true hygiene, poor nutrition and dirty/cold/harsh living conditions with life in today's America?

Check your facts and return with an appropriate comparison to today's lifestyle and conditions. Because Spanish Flu 100 years ago in third world conditions? Ain't it.
No indoor plumbing?

No sanitation?

Poor nutrition?

Dirty, cold, harsh living conditions?

Third world conditions?

USA in 1918?

Really?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/uaarchives/4749002801

https://victoriaplum.com/blog/posts/...-of-the-toilet

"The first indoor bathrooms that were made possible by the refinement of the toilet were communal affairs shared by many people. Previously, water closets were portable, so a dedicated space for their use wasn't necessary. More elaborate residences might have had a dedicated dressing room that contained a water closet, a moveable tin or iron bath, and a washstand, but this type of centralised "bathroom" didn't become widespread until indoor plumbing and permanent water closets gained acceptance toward the end of the 19th century. Within a few short decades, the traditional Victorian toilet became a permanent fixture as bathrooms proliferated and portable washstands and baths gave way to dedicated spaces. It didn't take long for indoor plumbing to gain acceptance as a good idea, and by the 1920s, American building codes required indoor bathrooms in all new single-family residential construction."

Perhaps you could explain to us how indoor plumbing affects spread of influenza?

The public health response to the 1918 flu pandemic in the US:

https://virus.stanford.edu/uda/fluresponse.html
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,482 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26430
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
So the ONLY way to encounter any pathogen is to get a vaccine?

OMG. Seriously. Seriously. GO take a basic biology course.

If we lived by your theory ... we'd all be DEAD. Right now, dropped down dead.

Why do think all those kids survived all those childhood diseases? Their immune systems were making antibodies.

Please do some research. Good GAWD.
No, a vaccine is not the only way to encounter an infectious organism. However, an encounter with the organism is required. You seem to think there is something you can do that will make your immune system produce antibodies to an organism with which you have never been infected. It does not work that way.

With an infection, in the absence of vaccination, the immune system activates and begins making antibodies. It also produces a slew of chemicals that cause you to have fever, muscle aches, and the other symptoms of flu. All of that is due to your immune system working. Sometimes the immune system goes into overdrive and can produce cytokine storm, which can be fatal.

A vaccine uses dead or greatly weakened organisms. In the case of flu, the injection is dead, the nasal vaccine is weakened. The nasal vaccine was not used this year because of concerns about effectiveness. With the injection, the immune system is exposed to far fewer viral particles than would happen with a wild infection because the virus cannot reproduce. The immune system has an easier time dealing with that small dose, but it still makes antibodies which protect against a wild infection and stop it before it causes illness. The immune response to the vaccine may produce some flu like symptoms, but those usually are mild and only last a day or two.

The kids who got those childhood diseases before vaccines had to get sick to become immune, sometimes seriously ill, sometimes developing lifelong disabilities, and sometimes not surviving at all.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
Quote:
Originally Posted by JONOV View Post
That stinks. But, aside from not ordering the rapid test, I'm not sure how the outcome would have been better if he had diagnosed it as the flu. Tamiflu might have made it better, a little bit. Maybe.

And, after a few days on antibiotics she likely wouldn't have tested positive for strep. So, its not impossible that she did have strep. And the flu. Ick.
Yeah, I'm kind of puzzled a) why the ped did a strep test after 3 days on antibiotics and b) why she told the OP to discontinue the antibiotics based on a negative rapid strep test when 5% of such tests are false negatives even when not taking antibiotics for three days and the doc at the urgent care thought the throat looked bad enough to treat.

I'm glad the DD is feeling better.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:46 PM
 
8,305 posts, read 8,577,591 times
Reputation: 25923
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
So you want to compare a disease that struck during a time where there was no indoor plumbing, no sanitation, no true hygiene, poor nutrition and dirty/cold/harsh living conditions with life in today's America?

Check your facts and return with an appropriate comparison to today's lifestyle and conditions. Because Spanish Flu 100 years ago in third world conditions? Ain't it.
Actually, I would say the major difference between that time period and the present was that antibiotics didn't exist at that time. Many of the victims of the Spanish Flu died of pneumonia that developed following the flu. The presence of antibiotics would make a considerable difference in the mortality rate.

However, it doesn't change the fact that what killed a majority of the victims of the Spanish Flu was the fact that the strain of the virus was so virulent that in young people with strong immune systems, the reaction of their immune system was so powerful it ended up killing them. The people who tended to do best with the Spanish Flu were older people with weaker immune systems and infants with immune systems that weren't fully developed.

You should take the time to read The Great Influenza by John Barry. Barry points out the fact that its largely myth that in 1919 sanitary conditions in America are what caused the Spanish Flu to eradicate about 650,000 people. Actually, the state of knowledge about infectious disease had grown by leaps and bounds since the 1880's. The Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research had a large group of scientists studying infectious disease and developing vaccines and serums to deal with them.

The point is that influenza is going to continue to be a serious problem. Some years the flu will be comparatively mild. Other years, a perfect storm will erupt and we will see frightening epidemics of influenza.

Influenza epidemics represent a severe threat to public health. It is ignorant and dangerous to act as though there is no need to control them through vaccination or otherwise.

Those who do not understand their history are condemned to repeat it.
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Old 04-03-2018, 04:55 PM
 
4,129 posts, read 2,710,180 times
Reputation: 4983
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
No, a vaccine is not the only way to encounter an infectious organism. However, an encounter with the organism is required. You seem to think there is something you can do that will make your immune system produce antibodies to an organism with which you have never been infected. It does not work that way.
That would be amazing if the human body could create antibodies against antigens that they were never exposed to, that's sci-fi stuff right there!

Like you said, either the person is exposed to the antigen naturally or via vaccination, in order for your B cells to know how to make that specific antibody.
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Old 04-03-2018, 05:12 PM
 
4,618 posts, read 10,494,859 times
Reputation: 10291
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
The CDC does not require mandatory reporting of deaths by flu for adults.

The CDC uses multiple ICD-10 codes to decide whether someone died of the flu when it does look at data. Please get some facts. Facts are your friend. Look into how the CDC *estimates* these stats for the adult population. Because that is what it is, just a guess.

And since the flu was so deadly this year and efficacy was so poor, logic dictates that there should be many more deaths, much more than an average year, correct?

Death rate is average this year. Please explain how all those people who did not get the vaccine are alive, as well as the 56% who did get the vaccine but had no protection, when death rates -- as assessed according to these facts -- should be through the roof.

But deaths are average in spite of all the fear mongering by the media.

Again, facts are your friends.
Facts are your friends and this post is utterly devoid of any facts...

The statistical models that the CDC uses are much more complex than what you have alluded to and are much more than a “guess”

Here is a fact for you.... 80% of childhood deaths from influenza occur in unvaccinated populations
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Old 04-03-2018, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Saint John, IN
10,638 posts, read 3,311,331 times
Reputation: 12748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Yeah, I'm kind of puzzled a) why the ped did a strep test after 3 days on antibiotics and b) why she told the OP to discontinue the antibiotics based on a negative rapid strep test when 5% of such tests are false negatives even when not taking antibiotics for three days and the doc at the urgent care thought the throat looked bad enough to treat.

I'm glad the DD is feeling better.
It's all puzzling to me as well, but I think her symptoms were more associated with the flu than with Strep and we know she tested positive for Flu. At any rate, now I know to just go to her pediatrician in the future. My girls are typically pretty healthy and only get sick once or twice a year.

My DD is doing very well today and good to go to school tomorrow!

Last edited by CGab; 04-03-2018 at 05:43 PM..
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Old 04-03-2018, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,960 posts, read 98,776,620 times
Reputation: 31371
^^Good to hear that! Consider a flu shot next year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
So the ONLY way to encounter any pathogen is to get a vaccine?

OMG. Seriously. Seriously. GO take a basic biology course.

If we lived by your theory ... we'd all be DEAD. Right now, dropped down dead.

Why do think all those kids survived all those childhood diseases? Their immune systems were making antibodies.

Please do some research. Good GAWD. Start here.

Biology for Kids: Immune System

Antigens and Antibodies

Scientists call the invaders that can cause disease antigens. Antigens trigger an immune response in the body. One of the main immune responses is the production of proteins that help to fight off the antigens. These proteins are called antibodies.

How do the antibodies know which cells to attack?

In order to work properly, the immune system must know which cells are good cells and which are bad. Antibodies are designed with specific binding sites that only bind with certain antigens. They ignore "good" cells and only attack the bad ones.
Here's what your "kiddy immunology" link says:
"Vaccines introduce microbes that are already killed or modified so we don't get sick. However, the immune system doesn't know this. It builds up defenses and antibodies against the disease. When the real disease tries to attack, our body is ready and can quickly neutralize the antigens."
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Old 04-04-2018, 04:27 AM
 
10,387 posts, read 7,467,722 times
Reputation: 18308
Doctors are human - some better than others. We are always free to get second opinions.
What would I do? Never go back to that doctor.
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