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Old 04-11-2018, 03:11 PM
 
4,616 posts, read 1,457,933 times
Reputation: 7541

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
A thread about the importance of early detection, screening, routine physicals and not ignoring potentially serious symptoms does not need an opposing viewpoint which WOULD be the definition of “doing harm”
No it doesn't.

You can have a brain and ask questions and follow up and say yes/no to whatever your physician suggests.

You can understand the false positive rate on tests and what that means -- getting treated for something you did NOT have.

You can understand that procedures and drugs have risks and weigh the risk/benefit for yourself.

You can understand that physicians earn bonuses for prescribing certain drugs over others, getting patients tested/screened for anything from depression to breast cancer, or for making sure a certain percent of patient load has certain vaccines. Lots of bonuses. So ... conflict of interest? Yeah. Pretty much.

Knowing all of that is HELPFUL. What's not helpful? Blindly doing everything your doctor and insurance carrier tells you.

 
Old 04-11-2018, 03:19 PM
 
4,616 posts, read 1,457,933 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
And what POSITIVE contribution do you think you have made to a thread about preventative care, early screening for serious health conditions and not ignoring potentially serious symptoms that can lead to death and disability????

This isn't the thread for your "alternative" view points....there was no need for you to comment in this thread PERIOD

The ONLY thing you and newtovenice can hope to accomplish in this thread is to potentially sway someone from seeking potentially life saving care.....

I mean you commented in the canker sore thread and you clearly don't even know what a canker sore is....

I don't understand someone with the need to post in every health care thread whether they have anything useful to contribute to the topic or not...
You do understand that doctors get bonuses for prescribing certain drugs, getting patients certain screenings as well as vaccinated certain percents of their patient population?

That means there is a conflict of interest.

You do know that many tests have high false positives rates, too, right? That means you'll be given surgery and drugs that you do NOT need.

Knowledge is power. Why are you so offended by those who are offering basic KNOWLEDGE about the healthcare system? It's like, I don;t agree with your viewpoint, so I should just shut up? Are you for censoring people who are trying to help you? Maybe take a look at the info and think about it. My friend works for a HUGE healthcare insurance company ... and she brings doctors checks when they prescribe certain drugs. It's her job.

Did you know that YOUR doctor might prescribe you a drug because he could get a bonus, even if it wasn't the right drug for you?

Don't shoot the messenger just because you do not like the message.
 
Old 04-11-2018, 03:23 PM
 
4,580 posts, read 10,392,339 times
Reputation: 10091
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
No it doesn't.

You can have a brain and ask questions and follow up and say yes/no to whatever your physician suggests.

You can understand the false positive rate on tests and what that means -- getting treated for something you did NOT have.

You can understand that procedures and drugs have risks and weigh the risk/benefit for yourself.

You can understand that physicians earn bonuses for prescribing certain drugs over others, getting patients tested/screened for anything from depression to breast cancer, or for making sure a certain percent of patient load has certain vaccines. Lots of bonuses. So ... conflict of interest? Yeah. Pretty much.

Knowing all of that is HELPFUL. What's not helpful? Blindly doing everything your doctor and insurance carrier tells you.
Care to explain how it is a "conflict of interest" for a physician to make sure his patient panel is meeting established guidelines for "wellness" including well established goals for vaccination, breast cancer screening, depression etc...

Those are all things a physician SHOULD be doing.

I don't think you understand the term "conflict of interest"...

What was HELPFUL in this thread? The OP and others sharing very personal tales that highlighted the importance of early detection and screening in serious illness, particularly the OP highlighting the fact that women often present very differently than men with heart disease...

What was NOT HELPFUL in this thread? Two specific posters who make it their mission to derail any thread that puts a positive spin on scientific, evidence based medicine rather than useless woo.....
 
Old 04-11-2018, 03:31 PM
 
4,580 posts, read 10,392,339 times
Reputation: 10091
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
You do understand that doctors get bonuses for prescribing certain drugs, getting patients certain screenings as well as vaccinated certain percents of their patient population?

That means there is a conflict of interest.

You do know that many tests have high false positives rates, too, right? That means you'll be given surgery and drugs that you do NOT need.

Knowledge is power. Why are you so offended by those who are offering basic KNOWLEDGE about the healthcare system? It's like, I don;t agree with your viewpoint, so I should just shut up? Are you for censoring people who are trying to help you? Maybe take a look at the info and think about it. My friend works for a HUGE healthcare insurance company ... and she brings doctors checks when they prescribe certain drugs. It's her job.

Did you know that YOUR doctor might prescribe you a drug because he could get a bonus, even if it wasn't the right drug for you?

Don't shoot the messenger just because you do not like the message.
KNOWLEDGE is power and what you are providing is NOT knowledge...

A "made up" friend that "delivers bonus checks for prescribing certain drugs?"

Doesn't happen.....nice try though.

I am a health care provider.....I WRITE prescriptions every day and have been for over 25 years....I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED a bonus check for writing for a certain medication....that is just laughable...

They must be just saving mine up

The idea that an "insurance company" would do anything to incentivize physicians this way shows you have no idea what you are talking about...

Insurance companies exist to try NOT to pay out money...certainly aren't encouraging more expensive medications.

Insurance make my life and all health care providers lives miserable....more often than not I can't get the medication for my patients that COULD help them because insurance DENIES it, along with tests, procedures etc.

I spend a large portion of every day on the phone with insurance companies trying to get over rides, peer to peer evaluations etc to get the NEEDED tests and medications for patients...

Insurance companies PAYING us....that is beyond laughable....
 
Old 04-11-2018, 04:21 PM
 
4,616 posts, read 1,457,933 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
KNOWLEDGE is power and what you are providing is NOT knowledge...

A "made up" friend that "delivers bonus checks for prescribing certain drugs?"

Doesn't happen.....nice try though.

I am a health care provider.....I WRITE prescriptions every day and have been for over 25 years....I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED a bonus check for writing for a certain medication....that is just laughable...

They must be just saving mine up

The idea that an "insurance company" would do anything to incentivize physicians this way shows you have no idea what you are talking about...

Insurance companies exist to try NOT to pay out money...certainly aren't encouraging more expensive medications.

Insurance make my life and all health care providers lives miserable....more often than not I can't get the medication for my patients that COULD help them because insurance DENIES it, along with tests, procedures etc.

I spend a large portion of every day on the phone with insurance companies trying to get over rides, peer to peer evaluations etc to get the NEEDED tests and medications for patients...

Insurance companies PAYING us....that is beyond laughable....
Yes it does happen. Insurance companies provide bonuses for physicians that choose cheaper drugs, not expensive drugs. She goes on visits every week over a 3-county area.

Again, don't shoot the messenger.

And what if you do not NEED any of those tests or screenings or drugs? Say you frown at the nurse, well, you must be depressed let's get you tested and prescribe you that drug! You leave thinking you are mental and find yourself on an antipsychotic.

It happens. And people who have no clue are dumped on the merry-go-round of additional testing, additional drugs, additional side effects, additional health problems.

To say that every doctor visit, every test, every screening, every drug, every hospital interaction, every surgery is 100% beneficial and needed for a patient is a flat out lie.

Don't shoot the messenger when you don't like the message. Maybe take a look inward to see why you are so angered that someone dared have a differing opinion.

PS. Do you take Blue Cross Blue Shield? Ask for their bonus booklet. I've seen it and I've posted it. They do pay. And it isn't laughable. It's horrific conflict of interest.
 
Old 04-11-2018, 04:25 PM
 
4,616 posts, read 1,457,933 times
Reputation: 7541
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Care to explain how it is a "conflict of interest" for a physician to make sure his patient panel is meeting established guidelines for "wellness" including well established goals for vaccination, breast cancer screening, depression etc...

Those are all things a physician SHOULD be doing.

I don't think you understand the term "conflict of interest"...

What was HELPFUL in this thread? The OP and others sharing very personal tales that highlighted the importance of early detection and screening in serious illness, particularly the OP highlighting the fact that women often present very differently than men with heart disease...

What was NOT HELPFUL in this thread? Two specific posters who make it their mission to derail any thread that puts a positive spin on scientific, evidence based medicine rather than useless woo.....
If the patient doesn't need the test, screening, drug or vaccine, and it is offered to the patient then yes it is a conflict of interest.

Not difficult to see.

false positives? Not useless woo
drug side effects? not useless woo
Conflict of interest via structured bonus fees for physicians? not useless woo
avoiding unecessary tests? not useless woo

Striking how you don't want anyone to think for themselves. Why is that? Why are you afraid people will make choices that are different than choices you make? Why do you not want people to have access to information?

That's the real question here. /shrug/
 
Old 04-11-2018, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Middle of the ocean
26,806 posts, read 17,234,614 times
Reputation: 38921
Just to be clear, my insurance company has requirements for my doctor for screenings (mammograms and such), not big pharma or my doc.
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Old 04-11-2018, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,203 posts, read 25,680,835 times
Reputation: 25975
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
You do understand that doctors get bonuses for prescribing certain drugs, getting patients certain screenings as well as vaccinated certain percents of their patient population?
Doctors do not get paid for prescribing drugs. They get paid the same for a visit whether you leave with a prescription or not.

Some insurance companies pay incentives if a certain percentage of a patient panel have certain screening tests done and receive age appropriate vaccinations. Why? Because those screening tests and vaccines make patients healthier. They pick up problems (like DH's colon polyps) in time for treatment to improve outcome. That saves the insurance company money. Patients benefit and so does the insurance company's bottom line. Finding problems early can save lives, not to mention reducing patient costs, too.

Quote:
That means there is a conflict of interest.
Helping patients stay healthier is a "conflict of interest"?

Quote:
You do know that many tests have high false positives rates, too, right? That means you'll be given surgery and drugs that you do NOT need.
What specific tests have "high false positives rates"? Tests can have false positives and false negatives. If the rates of either of those are too high, the test is not useful. An example would be thermography for screening for breast cancer. It is not sensitive or specific enough to be reliable.

Suppose a mammogram shows a suspicious area. No patient is going to be treated for breast cancer just on the basis of the mammogram. Additional testing with biopsies is needed first. If the biopsy shows that the area is benign, that does not mean that the mammogram and biopsy were not necessary.

Quote:
Knowledge is power. Why are you so offended by those who are offering basic KNOWLEDGE about the healthcare system? It's like, I don;t agree with your viewpoint, so I should just shut up? Are you for censoring people who are trying to help you? Maybe take a look at the info and think about it. My friend works for a HUGE healthcare insurance company ... and she brings doctors checks when they prescribe certain drugs. It's her job.
Because your "knowledge" is not true. That is why you are being challenged on it and why there is skepticism about your "friend" delivering checks from insurance companies to doctors. Insurance companies do not hand deliver checks to physicians and they do not pay for prescribing "certain drugs". They do have drug formularies that affect whether they will cover certain medications, because they want the doctor to prescribe what is cheapest for the insurance company to buy. As bluedevilz explained, doctors spend an enormous amount of time trying to get medications approved for patients when the alternative that works best for the patient is not the one favored by the insurance company - and they do not get paid anything for jumping through insurance company hoops.

Quote:
Did you know that YOUR doctor might prescribe you a drug because he could get a bonus, even if it wasn't the right drug for you?
These days the insurance company is not going to pay for a drug if there is not a proper indication to use it. It will certainly not pay a "bonus" for doing so. This is false.

Quote:
Don't shoot the messenger just because you do not like the message.
Your message is being shot down because it is not supported by facts.
 
Old 04-11-2018, 06:03 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,203 posts, read 25,680,835 times
Reputation: 25975
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
If the patient doesn't need the test, screening, drug or vaccine, and it is offered to the patient then yes it is a conflict of interest.

Not difficult to see.

false positives? Not useless woo
drug side effects? not useless woo
Conflict of interest via structured bonus fees for physicians? not useless woo
avoiding unecessary tests? not useless woo

Striking how you don't want anyone to think for themselves. Why is that? Why are you afraid people will make choices that are different than choices you make? Why do you not want people to have access to information?

That's the real question here. /shrug/
The "need" for a test is based on indications. Screening tests are offered based on research that shows that the test can reliably pick up problems for which early treatment helps improve patient health. The patient has the option to decline any and all testing but has to accept the risk of a less favorable outcome if a condition is picked up later rather than sooner.

Physicians are just not routinely doing things that are contrary to the best interest of the patient.

Doctors are aware of false positives and false negatives. That is why a positive test triggers further evaluation before treatment.

The vast majority of people who use prescription drugs do not have serious side effects from them, and the risk of side effects has to be weighed against the risk of not treating the condition at all.

It has been explained to you that the "structured bonus fees" that some insurance companies pay are not a lot of money per physician. You were interpreting payments for an entire panel as payments per patient and massively overestimated how much a doctor would be paid. The bottom line is that the only reason an insurance company will pay an incentive is because the procedure being incentivized results in fewer people getting sick. That is hardly against the best interest of the patient.

If the "information" presented is bad, it needs to be called out.
 
Old 04-11-2018, 07:23 PM
 
12,320 posts, read 12,960,222 times
Reputation: 8849
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I have a cousin who is alive only because his wife, who's a nurse, insisted he go to the ER when he started having chest pain. He was in his 50s.
the guy who sits in the office next to mine at work came in on a Monday morning a few weeks ago at 8:00 am and said his chest hurt. all 6 of his office mates said go over to the ER (we work at a large healthcare facility with an Emergency Room that employees can use). He was reluctant to go, and he said his chest also hurt over the weekend too. His six office mates become insistent and said go over to the ER NOW!!!! He finally agreed, glanced at his watch and said, "I'll go over on my break at 10:00." About 10 minutes later he collapsed at his desk, within seconds he was surrounded by doctors and nurses (all working in the building already) an ambulance was called, took him to the ER, he was not able to be revived and by 9:00am was dead. He was in his 50s.
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