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Old 05-02-2018, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque NM
352 posts, read 215,136 times
Reputation: 1127

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Back View Post
George HW Bush has been in an out of the hospital for the last ten years. But he does not die. He has been in the ICU more times than I can imagine, but each time he survives and is still alive.

I wonder if a regular middle or upper-middle-class person using traditional health insurance going to regular doctors and hospitals would still be alive if they had the same health challenges of President George H W Bush. Or is he still alive because he is wealthy and has access to the best medical providers and hospitals and advanced procedures?

Think about the friends and relatives you know that died recently. If they had access to the best healthcare in the world, like George H W Bush, and money was no object, would they still be alive?
What are George H W Bush's particular health challenges? I know plenty of people who are spending their senior years in and out of hospitals with many doctor visits in between. It seems like your answer is easy enough to find, if you identify what his health problems are, and then compare and contrast with the treatment/survival rate of everyone who has those challenges.

Being rich buys you better everything and more access to scarce resources. But can it make you live longer? Sure, if what you need to survive exists but is not readily available, there is always someone who can procure what you want if you have the means to buy it.

And yet, despite all that, even the richest people are still dying at the same disgraceful 100% mortality rate as the poorer people.

Look at the flip side. Think of JFK Jr and his wife Caroline Bisset. If they weren't wealthy, they wouldn't have been flying on their own private plane, they would have been sitting in coach on some commercial flight and made the wedding. Hence, if they were poorer, would they be alive now? Was it their access to the luxuries that money can buy that facilitated their deaths?
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Old 05-02-2018, 06:28 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis, East Side
685 posts, read 326,746 times
Reputation: 1580
I wouldn't be quick to chalk it up to medical care.

From the Boston Globe: "Researchers found that mortality in all cases [of physician strikes] either stayed the same or substantially declined when physicians walked out." https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/20...JII/story.html
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Old 05-02-2018, 07:13 PM
 
11,735 posts, read 14,075,878 times
Reputation: 7301
Perhaps they live longer since they have more to live for.
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Old 05-02-2018, 07:17 PM
 
Location: north narrowlina
473 posts, read 142,084 times
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there's been research on this going way back....and the general consensus was? : the harder you worked physically at a young age will translate to a longer life span, 'cause the better shape you developed, lasted somewhere in your dna, and actually changed it.... and all this was incorporated into the modern science of epigenetics, how the life you lived while younger can acutually change your DNA, and some of those experiences will actually show up as wonderful talents in your grandchildren!!!!!! cool huh???? something about the toughening and rigors you experience stays in your body's memory, just like disease is not only a genetic thing, but also a DIS-EASE THING.... your body has a conscience, a memory, and if you aren't taking care of yourself, living with too much stress, too much alcohol, too much bad nutrition, you are the author of a book your body writes, letting you know there is dis-EASE which you aren't listening too....and then, after months or years, you will find yourself ill and struggling because you just weren't doing the right things your body needs to stay healthy.

I used to volunteer at a Jewish Old Age home in Rockland County NY.....and we'd have staff meetings about what's going on with the patients on our unit....and we'd often express surprise that the holocaust survivors, despite the traumas they lived thru, were so old, and yes, some weren't in great health, but their will to live was tested when they were just kids, their hearts were strong, their will to live never died.... and this translated into old age.

I think some of us are better at listening to our bodies, are in tune with it, nutritionally, chemically, because food is chemicals and the scientific community is only recently coming to understand just what we eat makes us what we are and what we can endure.

oh, and p.s. the talent i inherited from my great grandmother? never materialized in my grandmother or mother, but i had my great grandmothers talent in spades, from her, I know i inherited epigenetically her talent as an equestrienne, she was a renowned equestrienne in Poland in the late 1800's in Poland....and known throughout Europe, was gosh darn famous!!!!!! all 4' 9" of her could command mastery of any horse like none other..... and when i was plopped onto a pony at age 3 myself, i grabbed those reins before the guy who was going to lead me around a circle....and i took off.... in perfect form.... with a perfect "seat" alignment of head, shoulders, elbows, hips, knees to ankles, was riding the stirrups on the balls of my feet, ankles down..... and i know my love for horses, my talent and fearlessness always was from my Bobsha.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:00 PM
 
Location: Raleigh
7,993 posts, read 5,086,765 times
Reputation: 9597
You guys all need to go watch Westworld. Season 1 is still available on HBO
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:40 PM
 
47 posts, read 22,362 times
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I maintain the super rich do live longer and are healthier because they have access to the best medical minds and technologies and hospital facilities on earth. When a relative of mine was dying of cancer she told me that the nurses and doctors really did not care if she lived or died. It was hard to get their attention and conversations about new and better ways to cure her were rushed and abrupt.

If someone was a billionaire they could hire a medical team that would devote their life and all their resources and energy to cure that person. They could network with the greatest medical minds in the world and use the most expensive drugs and equipment.

Far more attention than Chuck the bread delivery man dying of cancer in a small hospital in West Virginia.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:56 PM
 
17,091 posts, read 5,459,802 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bad Back View Post
I maintain the super rich do live longer and are healthier because they have access to the best medical minds and technologies and hospital facilities on earth. When a relative of mine was dying of cancer she told me that the nurses and doctors really did not care if she lived or died. It was hard to get their attention and conversations about new and better ways to cure her were rushed and abrupt.

If someone was a billionaire they could hire a medical team that would devote their life and all their resources and energy to cure that person. They could network with the greatest medical minds in the world and use the most expensive drugs and equipment.

Far more attention than Chuck the bread delivery man dying of cancer in a small hospital in West Virginia.
I have to agree.
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Old 05-02-2018, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
20,200 posts, read 14,580,962 times
Reputation: 22650
In general, yes. A lot of it boils back to genetics. The wealthy are more likely to make more informed medical decisions.
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Indianapolis, East Side
685 posts, read 326,746 times
Reputation: 1580
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceiligrrl View Post
I used to volunteer at a Jewish Old Age home in Rockland County NY.....and we'd have staff meetings about what's going on with the patients on our unit....and we'd often express surprise that the holocaust survivors, despite the traumas they lived thru, were so old, and yes, some weren't in great health, but their will to live was tested when they were just kids, their hearts were strong, their will to live never died.... and this translated into old age.
The Holocaust winnowed out all but the most hale and hardy. It seems unlikely that years of terror and starvation improved people's health decades later. See survivorship bias.
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Old 05-02-2018, 09:15 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
84,276 posts, read 97,408,722 times
Reputation: 30735
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shelia Shay View Post

Steve Jobs died from pancreatic cancer that has an extremely poor prognosis even if caught early. A cursory Google search shows that the five year survival rate for pancreatic cancers that are caught early is 25%, so the odds were against him from the beginning of the disease. It's true he didn't necessarily follow the conventional medical treatment, and may have felt he knew more than the medical profession, but that isn't what killed him. He had a very deadly form of cancer. A good friend of mine died from the same cancer, despite having every conventional medical treatment the doctors recommended.

As far as wealthy people living longer due to better health care, I do think there are times when they can get better treatment due to their ability to travel to better clinics and seek out the top specialists in a particular field. However, I think just as important, maybe more important, is their ability to have in-home care. People fare much better in their own homes than in hospitals or nursing homes.

Of course the ability to afford regular check ups and routine testing also factors in, along with a person's genetic predisposition.
Actually, no. A "cursory" Google search will not tell you about the type of cancer Jobs had. Here is a good article about it: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...cer-type-jobs/

"Jobs had a rare form of the cancer, known as neuroendocrine cancer, which grows more slowly and is easier to treat, explains Leonard Saltz, acting chief of the gastrointestinal oncology service at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center. "Survival for many years or even decades with endocrine cancer is not surprising." For that type, the sort that Jobs had, "survival is measured in years, as opposed to pancreatic cancer, which is measured in months."

"When you have a pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor, that is substantially different from pancreatic cancer," Saltz says."


And another: https://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegw.../#57ea44707d2e
"Isaacson told CBS’ 60 Minutes last night that while the news was not good, the upside was that the form of pancreatic cancer from which Jobs suffered (a neuroendocrine islet tumor) was one of the 5% or so that are slow growing and most likely to be cured."


BTW, my husband had a neuroendocrine tumor 4 1/2 years ago. The surgeons could not get it all, there's still some in his liver, and it's not growing measurably. I know everyone is different. Your friend may have had a different type of pancreatic cancer as well. We will never know how long Steve would have lived if he'd followed his doctors' advice.

Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-02-2018 at 09:45 PM..
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