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Old 08-02-2018, 10:29 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The key is to survive to the age of reproduction. What percentage do?



https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/780556

"Studying individuals from ancient Egypt, ancient Peru, ancestral Puebloans of southwestern America, and hunter-gatherers from the Aleutian Islands, researchers were able to identify atherosclerosis in more than one-third of the mummified specimens, raising the possibility that humans have a natural predisposition to the disease."

" 'Our findings greatly increase the number of ancient people known to have atherosclerosis and show for the first time that the disease was common in several ancient cultures with varying lifestyles, diets, and genetics, across a wide geographical distance and over a very long span of human history,' according to the researchers. 'These findings suggest that our understanding of the causative factors of atherosclerosis is incomplete and that atherosclerosis could be inherent to the process of human aging.'"

Chimps get heart disease, it's just a different kind of heart disease. It might be due to genetic differences, don't you think?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26721908

Come on SuzyQ. They were studying captive apes, and I specifically linked an article that also studied wild apes. "Similar cardiac lesions are occasionally seen in wild apes."

OCCASIONALLY. Please try to differentiate between things that happen frequently and things that happen occasionally.

 
Old 08-02-2018, 10:32 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Yes, it is complicated, but you think because you do not understand it no one does.

For goodness' sake, please tell us which non-industrialized people you are talking about!

There is no reason to expect that humans and "wild animals," including chimps, would have identical health problems. The article you cited does not compare chimps in captivity to those in the wild. It notes that there is little information on heart disease in wild living chimps. The article I cited says that wild chimps have also been found to have the fibrosis in the heart muscle found in captive chimps. All we know from your article is that humans and chimps have different kinds of heart disease, not why.
No one said humans and chimps have identical health problems! There article was about non-industrialized and industrialized humans, and wild and captive chimps. It NEVER said they have identical health problems!

Before replying, why not read what I posted?

And I linked that article because it specifically mentions several non-industrialized societies. (Which are very hard to find these days, and almost none are completely isolated.)
 
Old 08-02-2018, 10:33 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Dear Lord....

Actuarial tables listing ACTUAL ages of death and average years remaining of life for US citizens over the last 150 years was not "relevant" enough for you because it didn't break this data down by income level and urban vs rural locations...

Yet an article describing CHIMPANZEE life spans somehow proves your point?????

An ATHEISTIC EVOLUTIONARY treatise at that....

You really are unbelievable.....
The article is about hunting/gathering humans. It is also about chimps.
 
Old 08-02-2018, 10:38 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Why are antimicrobial drugs good and drugs for hypertension, diabetes, and heart disease are not?
I never said antimicrobial drugs are "good." They can sometimes save lives, and can decrease infant mortality. They can also be very bad if used incorrectly.

As I have explained in other posts, some of the drugs used for chronic diseases are more likely to cause harm than benefit. Sometimes they are "good," for people who could not live without them. But they are over-used and often given to people who will get no benefit from them.
 
Old 08-02-2018, 10:40 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
So why do you happily "allow" medical advancement to account for decline in infant mortality yet you fault it for apparently (in your view) not creating the same degree of improvement to post-infant health? It seems like a specious argument - "hey people you think medical science is so great but it really doesn't do a thing for you after infancy"? So you seem to revile and discount anything not related to pediatrics as being ineffective? It seems more that you have been forced to reluctantly concede to medical advancement for pregnancy/infants but you just don't want to give any credit beyond that?

And just to make clear - because you seem to have a bone to pick I think it is important to understand the motivation behind all your arguments - it's basic to the case you are trying to make. You accuse some here of working for big Pharm - sometimes I wonder who you work for and whether that motivates the logic you present.
I am trying to explain that modern medicine has accomplished certain things, but there are other things it has not accomplished.

Is there something wrong with trying to promote accuracy? Looking at evidence instead of mythology?

You are interpreting everything I say in a highly emotional framework. What about logic, doesn't that matter?
 
Old 08-02-2018, 11:07 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
For goodness' sake, please tell us which non-industrialized people you are talking about!
https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0521163621.htm

"Lifestyle factors specific to hunters-gatherers might explain the minimal increases in blood pressure in the Tsimane and low atherosclerosis risks in the traditional Pygmies, the study authors said. The factors include: high physical activity, low stress levels and potentially protective diets high in fruits, vegetables and potassium and low in calories, salt and alcohol."
 
Old 08-02-2018, 11:09 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
For goodness' sake, please tell us which non-industrialized people you are talking about!
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...xt?elsca1=tlpr

"Despite a high infectious inflammatory burden, the Tsimane, a forager-horticulturalist population of the Bolivian Amazon with few coronary artery disease risk factors, have the lowest reported levels of coronary artery disease of any population recorded to date. These findings suggest that coronary atherosclerosis can be avoided in most people by achieving a lifetime with very low LDL, low blood pressure, low glucose, normal body-mass index, no smoking, and plenty of physical activity. The relative contributions of each are still to be determined."
 
Old 08-02-2018, 11:11 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
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https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...s-in-the-world

"Of Tsimane people over age 40, about 85 percent have no atherosclerosis. And nearly two-thirds over age 75 were apparently free of arterial plaque.

Compare that to Americans — who have exactly the opposite statistics. Nearly 85 percent of Americans over age 45 have atherosclerosis. And only 14 percent are free of the plaque."
 
Old 08-02-2018, 11:16 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...de=lancet-site

Criticism of the research showing ancient mummies often had atherosclerosis:

"stating that atherosclerosis is not characteristic of any specific diet or lifestyle, but an inherent component of human ageing is not in agreement with recent studies demonstrating the importance of diet and physical activity."

"classification of probable atherosclerosis on the basis of the presence of a calcification in the expected course of an artery seems incorrect, because the anatomy can be strongly altered by post-mortem events. The walls of the vessels might collapse, dehydrate, and have the appearance of a calcific thickening. For this reason, the x-ray CT pattern alone is insufficient and diagnosis should be supported by histological study."
 
Old 08-02-2018, 11:18 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
https://news.unm.edu/news/why-an-ama...bal-population

“We found that among the Tsimane, people live into old age with little to no risk of coronary atherosclerosis, the principal cause of heart attacks,”
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