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Old 08-02-2018, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,481 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26426

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Come on SuzyQ. They were studying captive apes, and I specifically linked an article that also studied wild apes. "Similar cardiac lesions are occasionally seen in wild apes."

OCCASIONALLY. Please try to differentiate between things that happen frequently and things that happen occasionally.
Occasionally because fewer have been available to study.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
No one said humans and chimps have identical health problems! There article was about non-industrialized and industrialized humans, and wild and captive chimps. It NEVER said they have identical health problems!

Before replying, why not read what I posted?

And I linked that article because it specifically mentions several non-industrialized societies. (Which are very hard to find these days, and almost none are completely isolated.)
Why introduce chimps at all? What is the relevance to the conversation? The article was comparing heart disease in humans and heart disease in chimps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
I never said antimicrobial drugs are "good." They can sometimes save lives, and can decrease infant mortality. They can also be very bad if used incorrectly.

As I have explained in other posts, some of the drugs used for chronic diseases are more likely to cause harm than benefit. Sometimes they are "good," for people who could not live without them. But they are over-used and often given to people who will get no benefit from them.
"Some" is not all, and any drug that causes more harm than good will not be around for long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
"Lifestyle factors specific to hunters-gatherers might explain the minimal increases in blood pressure in the Tsimane and low atherosclerosis risks in the traditional Pygmies, the study authors said. The factors include: high physical activity, low stress levels and potentially protective diets high in fruits, vegetables and potassium and low in calories, salt and alcohol."
What took you so long?

The diet sounds a lot like the Mediterranean diet, doesn't it?

The hooker is the "high physical activity" part. Hunting and gathering consume a lot of time, and the hunters cover a lot of territory.

https://www.reliasmedia.com/articles...erican-tsimane

"Tsimané diet consists of 72% unprocessed, complex carbohydrates and wild fruits, 14% fat and 14% protein from nuts and seeds, and wild game ... Hunting sessions last more than an eight-hour workday and cover more than 11.18 miles (23,600 steps). Tsimané spend an average of four to seven hours per day in physical activity, with < 10% of their waking time spent sedentary. In contrast, more than 50% of Western waking time is sedentary."

The diet part would be easy to adopt. However, how many working Americans can devote four to seven hours per day in heavy physical activity unless it is part of a job? Can you walk 11+ miles a day? At a 15 minute per mile pace (brisk walking for me) that would be almost 3 hours per day.

Then there is the part about parasites. Intestinal worms, to be precise.

"Interestingly, helminth infections were associated with lower CAC scores even though more than 90% of adults at cross-sectional sampling suffered from helminth infections ... Earlier studies have suggested that helminths may protect against heart disease and type 2 diabetes because they decrease total cholesterol by using the host’s cholesterol for their own use, lower blood glucose by consuming the hosts glucose, and shift the inflammatory response toward a type 2 helper (TH2) cell response. A TH2 response is characterized by high IL-10 (which is anti-inflammatory), IL-5 levels, and other interleukins. The data from Tsimané offer further evidence to suggest that the type of immune response activated by infection or autoimmune disease is key."

So, to be like the Tsimané we have to eat a calorie restricted plant-based diet, exercise three hours a day and carry intestinal parasites. Oh, and don't forget to reduce stress!

But what about longevity. Uh oh.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...002/evan.21515

"The modal age of adult death is 70 years (SD = 6.3) ... 1.5 decades earlier than that in high‐income countries."

What do the Tsimané die from?

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...emporal_trends

" ... overall life expectancy at birth improved by 10 years from 45 to 53 after 1990. In both periods, over half of all deaths were due to infectious disease, especially respiratory and gastrointestinal infections. Accidents and violence accounted for a quarter of all deaths. ... we find a much larger period reduction of death rates during middle and late adulthood than during infancy or childhood. In the remote villages, infant death rates changed little, whereas death rates among older adults decreased sharply. We hypothesize that this pattern is due to a combination of differential access to medical interventions, a continued lack of public health infrastructure and Tsimane cultural beliefs concerning sickness and dying."

 
Old 08-02-2018, 07:05 PM
 
3,330 posts, read 919,781 times
Reputation: 2570
It looks like everyone finally agrees with the main point of this post. So I think I should try to summarize it, to make sure everyone understands why it's important.

It is a common belief in our modern culture that in earlier times people's lives were miserable and short. And that our modern advanced civilization has provided us with many benefits.

That is not entirely false. There have been many earlier times and places where human life was, in general, miserable and short, especially for the poor.

And our advanced civilization has provided us with benefits. It has improved some aspects of our health and safety, and made some aspects of our lives easier.

However, we should remember to keep these ideas in balance. It is not true that now is all good, and "then" was all bad. There were many different "thens," for one thing, and some were much worse than others. And most of the advantages we have now bring along disadvantages. For example -- our lives are physically easier, but that has led to serious physical and mental diseases.

The belief that now is in all respects better than "then" leads to an over-confidence in current medical ideas and practices. If some of the drugs have improved health, the assumption is that all drugs improve health. If our lives are longer now, on average, then our medical system must be taking good care of us.

But as you have seen, in the articles I linked, societies that do not have access to modern medicine are not always much worse off than we are, health-wise. And in some ways they can be much better off.

One medical myth that I have argued against says the chronic degenerative diseases, that are so common here, are a normal result of the aging process. That is not true, and there are many sources that confirm that it isn't true. I have linked several examples. These diseases are found mostly in modern advanced societies.

The myth says that earlier humans did not get our diseases, because they died young. But I have provided information showing that is not true. In at least some indigenous societies, if they survived to adulthood, they were likely to get old. And they usually got old without our diseases (heart disease, diabetes 2, dementia, arthritis, cancer, etc.).

The moral is, I think, that we should be skeptical of the marketing and propaganda coming from the medical industry and the drug companies.

Research that supports the medical myths gets blasted all over the internet, while contrary information can be hard to find.

I hope everyone who is skeptical of what I have been saying has read the articles I linked. No research article is the last word, but I think this evidence is hard to argue against.

So -- is modern medicine good or bad? Well it depends. Were people miserable and sick in prehistoric times? It's hard to know much about them, but research on contemporary hunter/gatherers suggests that at least some have been healthier than we are in some ways.

Infant mortality is always central in these discussions. Modern medicine has reduced it to almost zero. Is that a great triumph? Well, it is for the infants who would have died, and for their parents. It is not good for the species, because it means even the least healthy individuals are likely to survive and reproduce.

Our very low infant mortality rates mean that our average lifespan is much longer than the average lifespan of hunter/gatherers, and all humans who lack access to modern medicine.

That is BY FAR the biggest reason for the increase in lifespan.

So I hope this post has clarified some things. I hope everyone understands that this is a complicated subject, and can't be explained simply. And that trying to understand it is important.

We must be skeptical of our medical system, and especially of the drug companies. Repeated reminders are needed that the modern diseases are NOT the inevitable result of aging. And that drugs do NOT correct the problems. And that Americans absolutely must be educated about how to have a healthy lifestyle, and the importance of taking measures to prevent these diseases.

If you believe the diseases are an inevitable result of aging, you will NOT consider lifestyle important. How could it be, if the diseases would happen regardless of how you live?

But they are NOT inevitable, in general. Research has shown the importance of lifestyle, and it is an established fact. You can always find exceptions -- there are people with healthy lifestyles who get heart disease anyway. But they are exceptions!
 
Old 08-02-2018, 07:06 PM
 
3,330 posts, read 919,781 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Why introduce chimps at all? What is the relevance to the conversation? The article was comparing heart disease in humans and heart disease in chimps.
You didn't read it.
 
Old 08-02-2018, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Central IL
13,349 posts, read 7,115,490 times
Reputation: 31038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
It looks like everyone finally agrees with the main point of this post. So I think I should try to summarize it, to make sure everyone understands why it's important.
Slooooo-ooooooow clap.

BTW, it is illogical to say "everyone finally agrees" but then proceed to go on a page long diatribe repeating everything you've already said (sans references) so we understand the importance.

You have learned well from our political leader(s) - if you repeat something long enough and treat it as fact then you at least succeed in fooling yourself...or at a minimum succeed in fooling yourself into believing that you've fooled your audience....so I really gotta hand it to ya.

Good4Nuthin, you've said it all - well past the time to CUT THIS THREAD and put it (and us) out of our misery. Train wreck over (this time) - move along...nothing to see here.
 
Old 08-02-2018, 07:37 PM
 
3,330 posts, read 919,781 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
Slooooo-ooooooow clap.

BTW, it is illogical to say "everyone finally agrees" but then proceed to go on a page long diatribe repeating everything you've already said (sans references) so we understand the importance.

You have learned well from our political leader(s) - if you repeat something long enough and treat it as fact then you at least succeed in fooling yourself...or at a minimum succeed in fooling yourself into believing that you've fooled your audience....so I really gotta hand it to ya.

Good4Nuthin, you've said it all - well past the time to CUT THIS THREAD and put it (and us) out of our misery. Train wreck over (this time) - move along...nothing to see here.
So, you don't give a single reason for why you disagree with me. You just say how much agony the thread has caused you, and that you need it to be closed.

Without ever saying why you think it's wrong.

I have an idea -- maybe your agony is actually caused by having your beliefs demolished.
 
Old 08-02-2018, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Central IL
13,349 posts, read 7,115,490 times
Reputation: 31038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
So, you don't give a single reason for why you disagree with me. You just say how much agony the thread has caused you, and that you need it to be closed.

Without ever saying why you think it's wrong.

I have an idea -- maybe your agony is actually caused by having your beliefs demolished.
OMFG - I am writhing on the floor now in sincerest agony - crushed that my cherished beliefs have been taken from me!

I can't bear to repeat all my reasons again....you done tuckered me out...but your logic and research cited have not convinced me.
 
Old 08-02-2018, 08:34 PM
 
4,618 posts, read 10,494,859 times
Reputation: 10291
It looks like everyone agrees????

What?????


No one I have seen on this thread agrees with a single statement you have made

Delusional much?
 
Old 08-02-2018, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,481 posts, read 26,078,274 times
Reputation: 26426
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...s-in-the-world

"Of Tsimane people over age 40, about 85 percent have no atherosclerosis. And nearly two-thirds over age 75 were apparently free of arterial plaque.

Compare that to Americans — who have exactly the opposite statistics. Nearly 85 percent of Americans over age 45 have atherosclerosis. And only 14 percent are free of the plaque."
If you read the original article you will find that the test they used, looking for calcification, does not rule out the possibility of atherosclerosis without calcification: soft plaque. It does not completely exclude the presence of atherosclerosis.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...752-3/fulltext

"Our study is not without limitations. We employed CAC scoring as a direct measure of coronary atherosclerosis, but its non-contrast nature precludes assessment of non-calcified plaque constituents."

Therefore it is not correct to claim they have no atherosclerosis if you cannot assess the presence of soft plaque.

What the effect of the Tsimané lifestyle tells us is that prevention of atherosclerosis begins in infancy, which we already knew anyway.

As I said before, living as the Tsimané do would be extremely difficult for the majority of Americans, primarily because of the inability to devote enough time to exercise to approximate what the Tsimané do.
 
Old 08-03-2018, 06:05 AM
 
5,605 posts, read 4,158,119 times
Reputation: 12338
Nope. Don’t agree with your opinions. And that’s all you’ve presented over and over again. You believe what you’d like, but don’t claim everyone agrees when the exact opposite is clear if you read any replies other than your own.

Modern medicine has increased longevity past the point of infancy. Dozens of links have been posted to support this. Modern medicine is also not perfect. These two facts are not mutually exclusive.
 
Old 08-03-2018, 09:18 AM
 
3,330 posts, read 919,781 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
It looks like everyone agrees????

What?????


No one I have seen on this thread agrees with a single statement you have made

Delusional much?
If you do not agree with a single statement I have made on this thread, that seems very odd. It makes me think you would not agree with anything I said, ever, no matter how obviously true. Just because I said it.
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