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Old 08-03-2018, 09:10 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 922,918 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Williepaws View Post
Have you done any genealogical research on members of your family? The results can be surprising. Women died young in childbirth but if they survived, then many lived to their 60s and 70s. Children died young. Very common but if they survived, again many had longer lifespans then what I would expect. And this is going back to the 1700s. Makes you wonder if modern med has been so important afterall except for the economic value.
Modern medicine had a big effect on lowering infant mortality. Young children are vulnerable because their immune systems are not developed, so without medical interventions many will die.

A similar situation occurs with fertilization -- millions of sperm trie to fertilize the egg, but only the first one succeeds. This ensures that the winning sperm will be healthy, since it competed with millions of others.

This is the kind of thing nature does to improve the odds of individuals and species being healthy.

More babies are born than are needed to keep the species going, as the weakest are expected to die. Nature isn't very nice, is it!!

I haven't looked into it that much, but I assume antibiotics have a major role in preventing the deaths of infants and young children. So, yes, modern medicine is probably the reason babies die much less often now than in the past.

Since now most babies survive to become adults, average lifespan has increased dramatically. If a third or so of babies were dying, that brought the average way down. That is why we have the misconception that pre-modern people died in their 30s.

Antibiotics can also save the lives of adults, but that is much less common.

Modern medicine has other life-saving drugs and procedures, but their impact on average lifespan has probably not been great. And we have no reason to think the most widely prescribed drugs today do much to extend life.

 
Old 08-03-2018, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,490 posts, read 26,089,700 times
Reputation: 26446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Williepaws View Post
Did you bother reading about the lifestyle of any of the 5? And why they have a higher amt of centarians then other places in the world? Doesn't seem like it. Longer life cant possibly exist according to you unless western med is selling their drugs and treatments to the patients.
You said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Williepaws View Post
Google the “Blue Zones” That term was coined back in 1994 by demographers studying the number of centarians in different parts of the world. Almost every grp of these people do not have access to modern med. they dont take statins etc etc but they live long lives with very little heart disease and cancer. They dont all eat a Mediterranean diet. Its very interesting. Even the National Institute of Aging have been studying these grps. The more that western lifestyle enters the pictures the more heart disease and cancer, diabetes show up. No surprise.
My response was to your claim that the Blue Zone populations "Almost every grp of these people do not have access to modern med." I showed that that is absolutely not true. They do have access to modern medicine.

Loma Linda, CA is home to Loma Linda University School of Medicine, a Seventh Day Adventist institution. It's the Adventist lifestyle that makes Loma Linda a Blue Zone.

"Western med" would love it if folks improved their lifestyles. It is absolutely incredible that anyone can actually believe otherwise. The problem is that physicians can talk themselves blue in the face and patients will go home and sit on the couch and munch chips.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Modern medicine had a big effect on lowering infant mortality. Young children are vulnerable because their immune systems are not developed, so without medical interventions many will die.

A similar situation occurs with fertilization -- millions of sperm trie to fertilize the egg, but only the first one succeeds. This ensures that the winning sperm will be healthy, since it competed with millions of others.

This is the kind of thing nature does to improve the odds of individuals and species being healthy.

More babies are born than are needed to keep the species going, as the weakest are expected to die. Nature isn't very nice, is it!!

I haven't looked into it that much, but I assume antibiotics have a major role in preventing the deaths of infants and young children. So, yes, modern medicine is probably the reason babies die much less often now than in the past.

Since now most babies survive to become adults, average lifespan has increased dramatically. If a third or so of babies were dying, that brought the average way down. That is why we have the misconception that pre-modern people died in their 30s.

Antibiotics can also save the lives of adults, but that is much less common.

Modern medicine has other life-saving drugs and procedures, but their impact on average lifespan has probably not been great. And we have no reason to think the most widely prescribed drugs today do much to extend life.
You know, there is so much misinformation here that it is hard to know where to start.

There is much more to infant mortality than "their immune systems are not developed". One of the biggest problems is that the entire baby is "not developed": prematurity, especially extreme prematurity.

This describes some of the medical and social drivers of the decrease in infant mortaliity. It goes far beyond antibiotics.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm

If the healthiest sperm always wins the race, how come there exist birth defects?

So now we have "pre-modern people." Who are they? Who has the "misconception" that whoever they are - 'cause I surely do not know, since you have not told us - "died in their 30s"? There have been individuals in all eras who lived to advanced ages, but that does not mean more of those "pre-modern people" lived to advanced ages than are doing so today. The didn't, just like the Tsimane, despite their clog free arteries, do not.

Antibiotics save adult lives in large numbers. Please tell us why on earth you think that is "much less common." What are you basing that statement on?

https://www.nigms.nih.gov/Education/...et_sepsis.aspx

I already gave you a source that quantifies how much medical care, including new drugs, is extending adult lives. You just refuse to accept it.
 
Old 08-04-2018, 07:37 AM
 
4,618 posts, read 10,497,588 times
Reputation: 10291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
There are and have been all kinds of societies. I have explained this. There is no way to summarize health status and average lifespan for all of them at once. Poverty and malnutrition shorten life. Many developing nations are poor.

I have explained that there is no simple way to make a comparison between now and "then." I have explained that several times. You want a simple comparison, you want simple labels that describe people who live a more natural life than ours. It cannot be done simply.

I linked articles that help clarify things. But because your attitude is so hostile, nothing gets through. Your purpose in being here is to defend mainstream medicine, not to reason or consider evidence.
Are you going to honestly state that YOU are here "to reason or consider evidence"????

You have started innumerable threads ALL with the same erroneous claims, none supported by any evidence...we are all just expected to accept your "opinions" which you present as "facts"

You ignore all actual evidence presented to you that refute your claims....as for "hostility" no one insults more people than YOU on your threads

YOU have an agenda that runs through EVERY thread and post that you make, don't even PRETEND that YOU "reason or consider evidence"
 
Old 08-04-2018, 09:02 AM
 
575 posts, read 140,979 times
Reputation: 1046
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
You said:



My response was to your claim that the Blue Zone populations "Almost every grp of these people do not have access to modern med." I showed that that is absolutely not true. They do have access to modern medicine.

Loma Linda, CA is home to Loma Linda University School of Medicine, a Seventh Day Adventist institution. It's the Adventist lifestyle that makes Loma Linda a Blue Zone.

"Western med" would love it if folks improved their lifestyles. It is absolutely incredible that anyone can actually believe otherwise. The problem is that physicians can talk themselves blue in the face and patients will go home and sit on the couch and munch chips.




You know, there is so much misinformation here that it is hard to know where to start.

There is much more to infant mortality than "their immune systems are not developed". One of the biggest problems is that the entire baby is "not developed": prematurity, especially extreme prematurity.

This describes some of the medical and social drivers of the decrease in infant mortaliity. It goes far beyond antibiotics.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm

If the healthiest sperm always wins the race, how come there exist birth defects?

So now we have "pre-modern people." Who are they? Who has the "misconception" that whoever they are - 'cause I surely do not know, since you have not told us - "died in their 30s"? There have been individuals in all eras who lived to advanced ages, but that does not mean more of those "pre-modern people" lived to advanced ages than are doing so today. The didn't, just like the Tsimane, despite their clog free arteries, do not.

Antibiotics save adult lives in large numbers. Please tell us why on earth you think that is "much less common." What are you basing that statement on?

https://www.nigms.nih.gov/Education/...et_sepsis.aspx

I already gave you a source that quantifies how much medical care, including new drugs, is extending adult lives. You just refuse to accept it.
You keep harping on Loma Linda and ignoring the top three.
 
Old 08-04-2018, 09:08 AM
 
575 posts, read 140,979 times
Reputation: 1046
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
You said:



My response was to your claim that the Blue Zone populations "Almost every grp of these people do not have access to modern med." I showed that that is absolutely not true. They do have access to modern medicine.

Loma Linda, CA is home to Loma Linda University School of Medicine, a Seventh Day Adventist institution. It's the Adventist lifestyle that makes Loma Linda a Blue Zone.

"Western med" would love it if folks improved their lifestyles. It is absolutely incredible that anyone can actually believe otherwise. The problem is that physicians can talk themselves blue in the face and patients will go home and sit on the couch and munch chips.




You know, there is so much misinformation here that it is hard to know where to start.

There is much more to infant mortality than "their immune systems are not developed". One of the biggest problems is that the entire baby is "not developed": prematurity, especially extreme prematurity.

This describes some of the medical and social drivers of the decrease in infant mortaliity. It goes far beyond antibiotics.

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4838a2.htm

If the healthiest sperm always wins the race, how come there exist birth defects?

So now we have "pre-modern people." Who are they? Who has the "misconception" that whoever they are - 'cause I surely do not know, since you have not told us - "died in their 30s"? There have been individuals in all eras who lived to advanced ages, but that does not mean more of those "pre-modern people" lived to advanced ages than are doing so today. The didn't, just like the Tsimane, despite their clog free arteries, do not.

Antibiotics save adult lives in large numbers. Please tell us why on earth you think that is "much less common." What are you basing that statement on?

https://www.nigms.nih.gov/Education/...et_sepsis.aspx

I already gave you a source that quantifies how much medical care, including new drugs, is extending adult lives. You just refuse to accept it.
And you refuse to accept the side effects of many drugs and treatments. So if cipro extends your life by curing an infection but disables the patient for the rest of their life thats ok? The life was extended no matter the outcome to the patient? Or how about open heart surgery and the memory problems produced afterward that can ruin someones life? Thats ok because we extended their life no matter the cost to the patient? Man, west med is everything to you and can do no wrong. Patients dont really matter only life dxtensions. Geesh!
 
Old 08-04-2018, 11:00 AM
 
4,618 posts, read 10,497,588 times
Reputation: 10291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Williepaws View Post
And you refuse to accept the side effects of many drugs and treatments. So if cipro extends your life by curing an infection but disables the patient for the rest of their life thats ok? The life was extended no matter the outcome to the patient? Or how about open heart surgery and the memory problems produced afterward that can ruin someones life? Thats ok because we extended their life no matter the cost to the patient? Man, west med is everything to you and can do no wrong. Patients dont really matter only life dxtensions. Geesh!
There are risks to everything in life....

Do you fly? Do you drive? Should cars and planes be "banned" because, after all, a certain number of people are going to die every year because they drove and flew....guess those people "don't really matter" right??

Every decision we make every day is weighing risks and benefits and there may be repercussions on choosing what to eat or drink, whether to exercise, choosing to smoke, abuse drugs, cross a busy intersection, fly, drive, swim in the ocean....LIFE is full of risks and there can be dire consequences to everyday decisions we make..

Choosing to take a certain medications or undergo a procedure also has risks and benefits just like everything else in life...

No one is forced to have open heart surgery, but if I am 65, have a family I would still like to see and I have the option of A) Open heart surgery with a 10-30 % percent chance of post operative cognitive deciine or B) Die

Sign me up for A. You may feel differently and that is your right, no one gets strapped down for a surgery they don't want.
 
Old 08-04-2018, 11:18 AM
 
575 posts, read 140,979 times
Reputation: 1046
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
There are risks to everything in life....

Do you fly? Do you drive? Should cars and planes be "banned" because, after all, a certain number of people are going to die every year because they drove and flew....guess those people "don't really matter" right??

Every decision we make every day is weighing risks and benefits and there may be repercussions on choosing what to eat or drink, whether to exercise, choosing to smoke, abuse drugs, cross a busy intersection, fly, drive, swim in the ocean....LIFE is full of risks and there can be dire consequences to everyday decisions we make..

Choosing to take a certain medications or undergo a procedure also has risks and benefits just like everything else in life...

No one is forced to have open heart surgery, but if I am 65, have a family I would still like to see and I have the option of A) Open heart surgery with a 10-30 % percent chance of post operative cognitive deciine or B) Die

Sign me up for A. You may feel differently and that is your right, no one gets strapped down for a surgery they don't want.
Yes, but you are being reasonable. The other poster comes across that western med drugs and treatment can do no wrong.
 
Old 08-04-2018, 11:25 AM
 
3,335 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Williepaws View Post
And you refuse to accept the side effects of many drugs and treatments. So if cipro extends your life by curing an infection but disables the patient for the rest of their life thats ok? The life was extended no matter the outcome to the patient? Or how about open heart surgery and the memory problems produced afterward that can ruin someones life? Thats ok because we extended their life no matter the cost to the patient? Man, west med is everything to you and can do no wrong. Patients dont really matter only life dxtensions. Geesh!
My best friend's life was saved at age 50, with coronary bypass surgery. He had type 2 diabetes since his 30s, because he knew nothing about healthy lifestyles, and his medical doctors just gave him pills.

I was grateful that his life was saved, but it would have been so much better if he had been educated about lifestyle. I tried to convince him to exercise A LOT and to avoid carbohydrates, but he believed his medical doctors instead (120 minutes per week of exercise, low fat diet).

The surgery, and many drugs, prolonged his life until just recently. But he was in pain and often wound up in the hospital. Always going to doctors, having tests, ongoing pain and disability and frustration.

Yes, modern medicine saved his life and gave me an extra 15 years with him. But it would have been so much better if he were alive and healthy and still with me now. I can't describe how much I miss him, and that is one reason I am so motivated to educate people.

The moral is -- do whatever you can to prevent these awful diseases. Don't assume that modern medicine will make you healthy. It won't. It might prolong your life, and give you a second chance, but it will not restore your health.
 
Old 08-04-2018, 01:02 PM
 
3,335 posts, read 922,918 times
Reputation: 2570
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Are you going to honestly state that YOU are here "to reason or consider evidence"????

You have started innumerable threads ALL with the same erroneous claims, none supported by any evidence...we are all just expected to accept your "opinions" which you present as "facts"

You ignore all actual evidence presented to you that refute your claims....as for "hostility" no one insults more people than YOU on your threads

YOU have an agenda that runs through EVERY thread and post that you make, don't even PRETEND that YOU "reason or consider evidence"
I see nothing but anger and impatience in your comments on this and similar threads. I see no attempt to be rational.

My "agenda" is to criticize some aspects of mainstream medicine that many people feel need to be criticized.

Your "agenda" is to defend all aspects of mainstream medicine.

Sure, some MDs prefer how it used to be, when hardly any patients questioned them.
 
Old 08-04-2018, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Central IL
13,362 posts, read 7,121,412 times
Reputation: 31058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
I CAN'T GRASP THE SIMPLE CONCEPT?????

That's it. I am not answering you, your comment should have been deleted.

Your purpose here is to distract from the main points and argue endlessly and get the thread closed. I will not play your game. All you want to do is prove that most American adults should be on lifelong drugs, because they won't run 11 hours a day.

Just stop.
You can dish it out but you can't take it.

You may be able to wear people down in real life which makes you think you have won an argument. But glib misrepresentations, and outright misunderstanding of research and research methods coupled with ad nauseum repetitions aren't truly convincing. And I'd think that is what you want most.

People walking away are not convinced - don't fool yourself. And actual lying that all of us are convinced? It's even sadder if you think you HAVE convinced anyone. You ARE tenacious, but not in a good way and I do feel sorry for those you've convinced if their health will be hurt. People on here are not really as extreme as you represent them to be - you set up straw men to keep your argument going. It comes across as desperate but I don't know why.
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