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Old 08-09-2018, 09:48 AM
 
Location: too far from the sea
18,105 posts, read 17,234,713 times
Reputation: 30323

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SE1SG View Post
ceiligrrl,

I'm a little behind you, I grew up in the 60s and early 70s. However, much like everything you just said: soda pops were a treat, outside all day, in the fields in the early morning, at the rivers in the afternoon, and playing until dinner. Rinse and repeat. The over-weight club was less than 10% and childhood obesity (in my neck of the woods) was ZERO.
I grew up in the 50s and soda was a treat--at a birthday party or at the beach. Food was cooked at home and you rarely ate out. We had snacks but they were things like home made cookies or brownies. We drank milk with them. Yes, outside all day long playing--riding your bike to the playground, climbing trees, building forts or play houses and playing in them, neighborhood games/sports. Winter was ice skating on the pond, building snowmen and forts, sledding. We were not allowed to be inside except in terrible weather.

And at school, in a classroom of 25 kids, there would be one fat kid. That must have been genetic. I can remember that one fat kid--his mother used to come to the classroom to talk to the teacher. She said he didn't eat more than other kids and the doctor just said there wasn't much anyone could do. So for that one fat kid, it must have been genetic.

When I became a teacher, there was usually one overweight kid in a class of 25 also. Maybe that can serve to show us what the genetic percentage of obesity really is. Maybe it's one out of 25, or less.

Adults were not overweight, for the most part either. Some women did become overweight after years of childbearing, but it usually wasn't until they were older and more sedentary. I don't remember many overweight men at all. They were mowing lawns (not riding on the mower!), raking leaves, painting the house, and other physical activities. Men went golfing and bowling, and probably participated in other sports.

It's about diet and exercise, eating actual food, not frankenfood filled with additives. Exercise was not at the gym, it was part of your normal life. No one knows what all this fake food does to the body but it's not healthy. Read the labels if it comes in a box or a bag.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:36 AM
 
3,523 posts, read 951,848 times
Reputation: 2616
Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
I grew up in the 50s and soda was a treat--at a birthday party or at the beach. Food was cooked at home and you rarely ate out. We had snacks but they were things like home made cookies or brownies. We drank milk with them. Yes, outside all day long playing--riding your bike to the playground, climbing trees, building forts or play houses and playing in them, neighborhood games/sports. Winter was ice skating on the pond, building snowmen and forts, sledding. We were not allowed to be inside except in terrible weather.

And at school, in a classroom of 25 kids, there would be one fat kid. That must have been genetic. I can remember that one fat kid--his mother used to come to the classroom to talk to the teacher. She said he didn't eat more than other kids and the doctor just said there wasn't much anyone could do. So for that one fat kid, it must have been genetic.

When I became a teacher, there was usually one overweight kid in a class of 25 also. Maybe that can serve to show us what the genetic percentage of obesity really is. Maybe it's one out of 25, or less.

Adults were not overweight, for the most part either. Some women did become overweight after years of childbearing, but it usually wasn't until they were older and more sedentary. I don't remember many overweight men at all. They were mowing lawns (not riding on the mower!), raking leaves, painting the house, and other physical activities. Men went golfing and bowling, and probably participated in other sports.

It's about diet and exercise, eating actual food, not frankenfood filled with additives. Exercise was not at the gym, it was part of your normal life. No one knows what all this fake food does to the body but it's not healthy. Read the labels if it comes in a box or a bag.
I agree. The health crisis our society is experiencing is because of lifestyle, not genetics. And the solution is lifestyle, not drugs.

I had the same experience as a child (1950s), always outside having fun any chance we got. We did have some indoor games, but that was probably just for rainy days. We were almost all thin. There would be one fat kid in the class, but you never saw them outside playing, so maybe that's why they were fat.

Our diet wasn't really all that great though. No one saw anything wrong with white bread, for example. But I think all the exercise allowed us to tolerate the refined carbohydrates.

Some middle-aged women were overweight, but maybe because of all the labor saving machines. And families started getting a second car so no one ever had to walk.

I loved walking, running, and bicycling as a child. When I got to be a teenager, it wasn't cool anymore. Everyone wanted to drive. No one knew about the health benefits of exercise.

Later on, in my 20s, I decided to start exercising anyway and not worry what people thought. I did get laughed at. Some people thought I was poor because they saw me walking or bicycling. I still get offered rides a lot. I have to explain I am walking because I want to. They don't seem to believe me when I say I have a car.

So I think so much of the health crisis is cultural. If you are seen walking or bicycling people might look down at you. I decided my health was more important than what people think. But I can see why it's so hard for most people to not care, and just go out and walk anyway. Having a dog would help a lot, because then you have an excuse for walking.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
21,574 posts, read 26,211,757 times
Reputation: 26621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
You left out everything we actually want to know:

All-cause mortality
High quality evidence showed that statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing all-cause mortality at up to 6 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [26 studies, n=120,329].
High quality evidence showed that low-intensity statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing all-cause mortality at up to 6 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [12 studies, n=48,978].
High quality evidence showed that medium-intensity statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing all-cause mortality at up to 5 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [8 studies, n=42,687].
High quality evidence showed that high-intensity statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing all-cause mortality at up to 5 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [6 studies, n=27,664].
CV mortality
High quality evidence showed that statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing CV mortality at up to 6 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [22 studies, n=118,938].
High quality evidence showed that low-intensity statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing CV mortality at up to 6 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [11 studies, n=50,127].
High quality evidence showed that medium-intensity statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing CV mortality at up to 5 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [7 studies, n=42,248].
Moderate quality evidence showed that high-intensity statins are more effective when compared to placebo at reducing CV mortality at up to 6 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important at up to 5 years, but the effect size is too small to be clinically important [4 studies, n=26,576].
Source? Why don't we let the patient decide what is clinically important to him based on his individual risk profile?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
High quality evidence showed that statins when compared to placebo cause more liver adverse events at up to 5 years [16 studies, n=84,969].
Moderate quality evidence showed that low-intensity statins when compared to placebo cause more liver adverse events at up to 5 years [6 studies, n=32,273].
Moderate quality evidence suggested that medium-intensity statins when compared to placebo cause more liver adverse events at up to 5 years [6 studies, n=27,582]
Moderate quality evidence showed that high-intensity statins when compared to placebo cause more liver adverse events at up to 5 years [4 studies, n=25,114].
Source? What "adverse events? Serious adverse liver events turned out to be so uncommon that monitoring liver function is no longer routine.

Liver?

https://www.physiology.org/doi/10.1152/ajpgi.00441.2016

Quote:
Originally Posted by in_newengland View Post
I grew up in the 50s and soda was a treat--at a birthday party or at the beach. Food was cooked at home and you rarely ate out. We had snacks but they were things like home made cookies or brownies. We drank milk with them. Yes, outside all day long playing--riding your bike to the playground, climbing trees, building forts or play houses and playing in them, neighborhood games/sports. Winter was ice skating on the pond, building snowmen and forts, sledding. We were not allowed to be inside except in terrible weather.

And at school, in a classroom of 25 kids, there would be one fat kid. That must have been genetic. I can remember that one fat kid--his mother used to come to the classroom to talk to the teacher. She said he didn't eat more than other kids and the doctor just said there wasn't much anyone could do. So for that one fat kid, it must have been genetic.

When I became a teacher, there was usually one overweight kid in a class of 25 also. Maybe that can serve to show us what the genetic percentage of obesity really is. Maybe it's one out of 25, or less.

Adults were not overweight, for the most part either. Some women did become overweight after years of childbearing, but it usually wasn't until they were older and more sedentary. I don't remember many overweight men at all. They were mowing lawns (not riding on the mower!), raking leaves, painting the house, and other physical activities. Men went golfing and bowling, and probably participated in other sports.

It's about diet and exercise, eating actual food, not frankenfood filled with additives. Exercise was not at the gym, it was part of your normal life. No one knows what all this fake food does to the body but it's not healthy. Read the labels if it comes in a box or a bag.
Same for me. I have a photo of me and a set of cousins. By today's averages we were skinny. I was the oldest (about 12) and the rest were boys of assorted ages. There were a couple of heavy girls that I went to school with that I now suspect had polycystic ovary syndrome.

My mother served Coca-Cola if we grilled hamburgers, but we did drink the traditional southern "sweet tea" with most meals. The Coke bottles held about 8 ounces, and each person got one. Dinner was a meat, veggie, starch, and homemade cornbread or biscuits. Servings were small. One chicken fed all four of us, including my father and brother, and I admit it might be fried. We did not have dessert with every meal and not even every day but when we did it was homemade; mom did keep a package of storebought chocolate chip cookies usually on hand. A serving of cookies was two, not half a package.

As far as obesity is concerned, I do not think it is what we eat but how much. Restaurants serve too much, and dinner plates have gotten bigger and bigger. We have a set of my husband's grandmother's china that is about 100 years old. The dinner plates are not much larger than a modern salad plate.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 12:09 PM
 
3,523 posts, read 951,848 times
Reputation: 2616
Also -- longevity is not the only thing we should care about. So many people are living with serious disabilities that destroy quality of life. Maybe some of them are being kept alive by drugs -- I have no idea how many would have been alive anyway.

Maybe the drugs extend life significantly for some people -- I don't know, and that is a different subject.

However, we also do not know how much statins might contribute to disability after long-term use. It is known that they can cause muscle damage, and this is especially true for anyone who exercises. They might also contribute to dementia after long use, and when used in combination with other drugs. These things have not been studied much if at all.

When we see large numbers of elderly people with dementia and physical disability, the assumption is that it results from the normal aging process. But how do we know that? We need research to determine if statins, and other drugs, could be contributing. The health professionals in assisted living and nursing homes seem to think drugs are good, the more the better. So these patients are usually on multiple drugs, and no one knows how they might interact.

Statins for primary prevention don't work, and we know because we have the evidence. But MOST patients take statins for primary prevention! There are many millions of them. Sacrificing the ability to exercise normally for no good reason. And possibly risking other damage in the future.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 12:10 PM
 
3,523 posts, read 951,848 times
Reputation: 2616
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Source? Why don't we let the patient decide what is clinically important to him based on his individual risk profile?



Source? What "adverse events? Serious adverse liver events turned out to be so uncommon that monitoring liver function is no longer routine.
I got all that the from the paper YOU linked.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 12:41 PM
 
3,062 posts, read 1,226,777 times
Reputation: 6115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Also -- longevity is not the only thing we should care about. So many people are living with serious disabilities that destroy quality of life. Maybe some of them are being kept alive by drugs -- I have no idea how many would have been alive anyway.

Maybe the drugs extend life significantly for some people -- I don't know, and that is a different subject.

However, we also do not know how much statins might contribute to disability after long-term use. It is known that they can cause muscle damage, and this is especially true for anyone who exercises. They might also contribute to dementia after long use, and when used in combination with other drugs. These things have not been studied much if at all.

When we see large numbers of elderly people with dementia and physical disability, the assumption is that it results from the normal aging process. But how do we know that? We need research to determine if statins, and other drugs, could be contributing. The health professionals in assisted living and nursing homes seem to think drugs are good, the more the better. So these patients are usually on multiple drugs, and no one knows how they might interact.

Statins for primary prevention don't work, and we know because we have the evidence. But MOST patients take statins for primary prevention! There are many millions of them. Sacrificing the ability to exercise normally for no good reason. And possibly risking other damage in the future.
Right, but there are also other disabilities or disorders that are easily treatable and have been helped with drugs- such as Hashimoto’s/Graves’ disease, both of which are extremely common and have a genetic component. Many people who have to take maintenance drugs like synthroid for life have no other quality of life changes. Most of the people I know who take synthroid live otherwise normal lives. If they aren’t treated, both of those disorders can cause serious problems. I had one friend who gained an alarming amount of weight and he didn’t know why. Obviously any hypothyroid issue is pretty rare in men, so they did not diagnose it in him as early as they could. Meanwhile, a family member started to have vision issues with Graves‘ disease and had a reaction to the first-line treatment used (she had to have the radioactive iodine). Both of them are on synthroid now with no real problems.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 12:49 PM
 
3,523 posts, read 951,848 times
Reputation: 2616
Quote:
Originally Posted by RamenAddict View Post
Right, but there are also other disabilities or disorders that are easily treatable and have been helped with drugs- such as Hashimoto’s/Graves’ disease, both of which are extremely common and have a genetic component. Many people who have to take maintenance drugs like synthroid for life have no other quality of life changes. Most of the people I know who take synthroid live otherwise normal lives. If they aren’t treated, both of those disorders can cause serious problems. I had one friend who gained an alarming amount of weight and he didn’t know why. Obviously any hypothyroid issue is pretty rare in men, so they did not diagnose it in him as early as they could. Meanwhile, a family member started to have vision issues with Graves‘ disease and had a reaction to the first-line treatment used (she had to have the radioactive iodine). Both of them are on synthroid now with no real problems.
I keep having to repeat that I am not criticizing all drugs. It is completely off topic to explain that some people need certain drugs to survive and be healthy. We all know that.

To go from there to the idea that drugs are good, the more the better -- that is the fallacy I am criticizing.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 12:55 PM
 
19,008 posts, read 6,233,192 times
Reputation: 12818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
I keep having to repeat that I am not criticizing all drugs. It is completely off topic to explain that some people need certain drugs to survive and be healthy. We all know that.

To go from there to the idea that drugs are good, the more the better -- that is the fallacy I am criticizing.
It's amazing how it goes on and on from some about taking drugs or not taking them....I don't love them and keep them to a minimum but do take a few and for thyroid support for sure. They are my last resort after I've worked to "heal myself".
 
Old 08-09-2018, 01:04 PM
 
3,523 posts, read 951,848 times
Reputation: 2616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaminhealth View Post
It's amazing how it goes on and on from some about taking drugs or not taking them....I don't love them and keep them to a minimum but do take a few and for thyroid support for sure. They are my last resort after I've worked to "heal myself".
Sometimes drugs are needed, but at least you are trying to avoid them. That's what all of us should do. And that is why we sometimes have to question mainstream official guidelines.
 
Old 08-09-2018, 04:35 PM
 
7,705 posts, read 5,436,007 times
Reputation: 14450
This thread made me think of this old joke:

I recently picked a new primary care doctor.

After two visits and exhaustive Lab tests, she said I was doing fairly well for my age (I am seventy).

A little concerned about that comment, I couldn't resist asking her, 'Do you think I'll live to be 80?'

She asked, 'Do you smoke tobacco, or drink beer, wine or hard liquor?'

'Oh no,' I replied. 'I'm not doing drugs, either!'

Then she asked, 'Do you eat rib-eye steaks and barbecued ribs?'

'I said, 'Not much... My former doctor said that all red meat is very unhealthy!'

'Do you spend a lot of time in the sun, like playing golf, boating, sailing, hiking, or bicycling?'

'No, I don't,' I said.

She asked, 'Do you gamble, drive fast cars, or have a lot of sex?'

'No', I said...

She looked at me and said, 'Then, why do you even care?'
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