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Old 08-14-2018, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Central IL
13,631 posts, read 7,300,920 times
Reputation: 31539

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Most people don't get the correct information. They get biased and deceptive marketing information from drug companies. News outlets repeat the marketing information without ever questioning it. Medical doctors mostly trust it also.

You never explained why you think reporting risk reduction in relative terms is not deceptive. It can make a tiny benefit seem huge. There is no context, no way to make sense of it.

I have seen various NNTs for various risk levels. I got the 250 number from an article you linked, somewhere buried in this thread. But I have seen similar NNTs elsewhere.

I have read, and have posted here, various NNTs for various endpoints, not just death. Often, they have found no mortality reduction at all for low risk people. And the CVD NNT is usually very high for low risk people.

I don't know what should be told to people who refuse to improve their lifestyle. I think most of the time it's because they believe the drugs will protect them, so why bother. Changing your lifestyle takes effort, taking a pill is easy. They should be told that the pill only has a small chance of protecting them, and that if they don't improve their lifestyle they may have a short life, or become disabled, even with the pills.

I think most will listen to accurate information, and get motivated to make changes.

Are there people who are incredibly stubborn, who will not listen to important health information? Millions of people still smoke, in spite of knowing the risks. But cigarette addiction is very hard to break, and a lot of them would like to quit but simply can't.

In the case of exercise, it is hard to get started when you have gone for decades without it. People just need to be convinced it's important, and should be reassured that they will get used to it. But, as I keep saying, the official recommendation of 120 minutes per week is not enough.

With nutrition, it's important that patients get current information. And there is plenty of controversy about what diet is best, and maybe it isn't the same for everyone. But there is agreement that refined carbohydrates and processed food are bad. Not everyone knows this, many probably don't. The American diet is pretty much based on refined carbohydrates.

Medical doctors don't have time to educate patients about lifestyle. But this education can come from anywhere. We know it's possible, because anti-smoking advertisements worked. We are getting too much pro-drug information, and seldom hearing the other side.

The messages from the drug companies need to be balanced by other more scientific and accurate messages. Medical doctors should learn about relative vs absolute risk reduction. It's so easy to find articles in medical journals and on general news websites shouting about 45% reductions in heart disease thanks to drugs. This is a marketing strategy, it is not scientific, and it misleads people, and it even misleads doctors.
A whole lot of the same rhetoric - must be the "broken record" technique but still no answer on whether "noncompliant" people (aka those for whom lifestyle changes don't work) deserve medication or have to roast in he|| for their sins. Meanwhile, another sermon.

 
Old 08-14-2018, 07:10 AM
 
5,705 posts, read 3,244,605 times
Reputation: 6692
My husband had the attitude that his meds would save him and he could eat whatever he wanted. Heart attack, twice. Two weeks ago he had a Pacemaker put in.

He was told that he needs to do BOTH; take the medication and watch his diet, and exercise. Fast food is his downfall. Every day (retired) he would go out to eat pizza, hot dogs, and Big Macs for lunch. Well, for two weeks he cannot drive after the surgery. He is at my mercy to drive him. I am not about to drive him every day to fast food places. I don't want to eat that stuff myself. He has to eat what I choose to give him for lunch. Made a big salad for dinner last night with Spring Mix, kidney beans, mushrooms, leftover roasted chicken, and orange. I made my own dressing from the juice of a lemon and orange, with a bit of honey and dijon mustard. This leftover is what he gets to eat for lunch today. He has also lost 10 lbs. in 10 days.

Exercise? Go putter around and straighten up the garage. Isn't that more exercise than reclining in a chair watching TV all day?

I can only hope that this time he gets the message when he can drive again. Your medications ALONE are not going to save you.
 
Old 08-14-2018, 07:44 AM
 
Location: Central IL
13,631 posts, read 7,300,920 times
Reputation: 31539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
My husband had the attitude that his meds would save him and he could eat whatever he wanted. Heart attack, twice. Two weeks ago he had a Pacemaker put in.

He was told that he needs to do BOTH; take the medication and watch his diet, and exercise. Fast food is his downfall. Every day (retired) he would go out to eat pizza, hot dogs, and Big Macs for lunch. Well, for two weeks he cannot drive after the surgery. He is at my mercy to drive him. I am not about to drive him every day to fast food places. I don't want to eat that stuff myself. He has to eat what I choose to give him for lunch. Made a big salad for dinner last night with Spring Mix, kidney beans, mushrooms, leftover roasted chicken, and orange. I made my own dressing from the juice of a lemon and orange, with a bit of honey and dijon mustard. This leftover is what he gets to eat for lunch today. He has also lost 10 lbs. in 10 days.

Exercise? Go putter around and straighten up the garage. Isn't that more exercise than reclining in a chair watching TV all day?

I can only hope that this time he gets the message when he can drive again. Your medications ALONE are not going to save you.
That's great he's losing weight...but what about when he can drive again?

What would you/he do if his doctor said "No meds until you prove you can't get better on your own with diet and exercise"?
 
Old 08-14-2018, 08:02 AM
 
4,224 posts, read 1,781,603 times
Reputation: 11896
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
A whole lot of the same rhetoric - must be the "broken record" technique but still no answer on whether "noncompliant" people (aka those for whom lifestyle changes don't work) deserve medication or have to roast in he|| for their sins. Meanwhile, another sermon.
Lol. This.

At this point between the other nutty pharma, vaccine and pain med threads, we should just cease all meds for everyone on the planet, put everyone on a treadmill with grape seed extract and watch the transformation occur!

Or....maybe just maybe worry about thyself.
 
Old 08-14-2018, 09:24 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
9,230 posts, read 6,422,518 times
Reputation: 12908
Quote:
Originally Posted by LLCNYC View Post
Lol. This.

At this point between the other nutty pharma, vaccine and pain med threads, we should just cease all meds for everyone on the planet, put everyone on a treadmill with grape seed extract and watch the transformation occur!

Or....maybe just maybe worry about thyself.
Actually, I think the insurance companies might take this approach if they could get away with it. (tongue-in-cheek).

I say that because they do deny certain medical procedures or tests until a patient's providers can document the patient has gone through other measures intended to mitigate the patient's condition first, and these haven't worked.. For example, for MRI's of a patient's neck or back, they may have have to document that the patient has gone through a course of antiinflammatory medication, exercise or physical therapy first before they will approve the MRI. This might be appropriate in some, perhaps even most cases, but the insurance company places that restriction on all its subscribers regardless of the reason for the MRI, even if those other measures would be inappropriate for a patient.

Actually, I'd be happy if running (or even just slogging along)on a treadmill and slurping down grapeseed extract all day would correct the vicissitudes of old age that seem to be rearing their ugly heads around here.
 
Old 08-14-2018, 09:29 AM
 
3,539 posts, read 974,611 times
Reputation: 2640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travelassie View Post
Actually, I think the insurance companies might take this approach if they could get away with it. (tongue-in-cheek).

I say that because they do deny certain medical procedures or tests until a patient's providers can document the patient has gone through other measures intended to mitigate the patient's condition first, and these haven't worked.. For example, for MRI's of a patient's neck or back, they may have have to document that the patient has gone through a course of antiinflammatory medication, exercise or physical therapy first before they will approve the MRI. This might be appropriate in some, perhaps even most cases, but the insurance company places that restriction on all its subscribers regardless of the reason for the MRI, even if those other measures would be inappropriate for a patient.

Actually, I'd be happy if running (or even just slogging along)on a treadmill and slurping down grapeseed extract all day would correct the vicissitudes of old age that seem to be rearing their ugly heads around here.
Slogging on the treadmill won't prevent us getting old and dying. But it will make the process a whole lot easier and better, in most cases.

By the way, walking outdoors might be more pleasant and you wouldn't feel like you were slogging. Get a dog and then you have to go out and walk.
 
Old 08-14-2018, 09:30 AM
 
Location: SW Florida
9,230 posts, read 6,422,518 times
Reputation: 12908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48 View Post
My husband had the attitude that his meds would save him and he could eat whatever he wanted. Heart attack, twice. Two weeks ago he had a Pacemaker put in.

He was told that he needs to do BOTH; take the medication and watch his diet, and exercise. Fast food is his downfall. Every day (retired) he would go out to eat pizza, hot dogs, and Big Macs for lunch. Well, for two weeks he cannot drive after the surgery. He is at my mercy to drive him. I am not about to drive him every day to fast food places. I don't want to eat that stuff myself. He has to eat what I choose to give him for lunch. Made a big salad for dinner last night with Spring Mix, kidney beans, mushrooms, leftover roasted chicken, and orange. I made my own dressing from the juice of a lemon and orange, with a bit of honey and dijon mustard. This leftover is what he gets to eat for lunch today. He has also lost 10 lbs. in 10 days.

Exercise? Go putter around and straighten up the garage. Isn't that more exercise than reclining in a chair watching TV all day?

I can only hope that this time he gets the message when he can drive again. Your medications ALONE are not going to save you.
Glad to hear he seems to be doing better even if it might be a result of being "captive" in your more healthy diet program. Here's hoping he realizes he feels better, gets more mileage, so to speak, if he follows your diet instead of the fast food, and maybe even gets a bit of exercise to boot. That could be motivation for him to continue.

Wishing you both luck with this!
 
Old 08-14-2018, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Central IL
13,631 posts, read 7,300,920 times
Reputation: 31539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Good4Nothin View Post
Slogging on the treadmill won't prevent us getting old and dying. But it will make the process a whole lot easier and better, in most cases.

By the way, walking outdoors might be more pleasant and you wouldn't feel like you were slogging. Get a dog and then you have to go out and walk.
...and put on a happy face!...and that is your public service announcement for the day.

Personally, I love slogging through the rain, 95 degree heat, and 6+ inches of snow on the ground - give me a treadmill any day!
 
Old 08-14-2018, 09:43 AM
 
3,143 posts, read 1,261,303 times
Reputation: 6261
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
...and put on a happy face!...and that is your public service announcement for the day.

Personally, I love slogging through the rain, 95 degree heat, and 6+ inches of snow on the ground - give me a treadmill any day!
Donít forget pitch black out in barely lit areas. Most people donít have access to the outdoors for exercise probably 6 months of the year due to bad weather....
 
Old 08-14-2018, 09:58 AM
 
3,539 posts, read 974,611 times
Reputation: 2640
Maybe I should get a treadmill for the awful weather. I go out if it's zero degrees or a hundred degrees, and sometimes that is not fun. The worst weather for walking or biking is cold, rainy, and windy.
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