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Old 11-27-2019, 04:44 PM
 
5,171 posts, read 11,312,096 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coschristi View Post
Who said doctors are witholding antibiotics so that patients will die? I said the CDC's campaign is causing doctors to be wary of prescribing antibiotics; which is causing patients to die.

Doctors are under mandates to limit prescribing & face disciplinary actions if they exceed mandated limits. According to my doctor, my dad's doctor & my uncle, who is a doctor. All in Colorado, so YMMV.

As doctors lose their autonomy in treating patients as individuals; patient care & patients ... suffer.
Yeah....that is completely made up BS

https://cha.com/wp-content/uploads/2...port_final.pdf

Notice in the above document two KEY features:

1. Voluntary. (that would be the opposite of "mandate")

2. Collaborative ( ie not punitive, no "disciplinary actions)
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Old 11-27-2019, 06:46 PM
 
Location: Eastern Tennessee
2,666 posts, read 1,972,028 times
Reputation: 7098
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
You don't seem to understand the report or drug resistant micro organisms.

The only "could" used in the report relates to the number of deaths that multiple drug resistant micro organisms will be responsible for....it will be a massive number, it "could" be truly massive

There is no "could" related to the existence of drug resistant bugs....they are here and more are coming..

There is no "could" that drug resistant bugs cause a significant number of deaths already with the numbers growing exponentially.....it is happening NOW

To say one does not "believe in the CDC" means one does not believe in science, and frankly science doesn't care if you believe in it or not...

You also seem to believe "some build up a resistance to antibiotics" if we overuse them....

Some what? People or micro organisms???

Do you think people build up a resistance to antibiotics?? I hear this misconception from patients all the time and it is not how it works...

People will tell me certain antibiotics "don't work on them"....which is of course nonsense

If you correctly believe that "micro organisms build up resistance" well that horse has already left the barn....kind of the point of this report.

Multiple drug resistant bacteria already exist and while appropriate use of antibiotics is important as is not using antibiotics when not needed the problem isn't going away by simply minimizing use of antibiotics going forward...

Last point, if antibiotics are needed then a doctor shouldn't be careful about using, failure to treat a bacterial infection aggressively can lead to loss of life or limb. Your body isn't going to be able to "fight off" an overwhelming bacterial infection and by the time you realize this it may well be too late...
Preach it brother
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:01 PM
 
10,693 posts, read 4,964,698 times
Reputation: 14120
Quote:
Originally Posted by reneeh63 View Post
And why do people stop taking when they still have pills? Is it truly because they think they are completely better? They are "saving" the pills for a future illness? Or are they deep down skeptical and just feel better not having to take a pill so they stop as soon as they are "able"?

Because antibiotics are nasty. They make your belches and urine smell like rotten eggs. They kill the "good" bacteria in your intestines and mess with your digestion.
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Old 11-27-2019, 07:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
Micro organisms become resistant through natural selection

Exactly. And it is this reason that most of the CDC admonishments are nonsense. CDC likes to sound the trumpets of doom to elevate their own importance (and funding).


For example, so what if a mom gives her kid antibiotics for a cold? Of course, she's wasting her money and doing nothing for the cold, which is a virus. But if there are no harmful bacteria present then there will be no survival of the fittest and natural selection taking place.
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
24,175 posts, read 29,253,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Exactly. And it is this reason that most of the CDC admonishments are nonsense. CDC likes to sound the trumpets of doom to elevate their own importance (and funding).


For example, so what if a mom gives her kid antibiotics for a cold? Of course, she's wasting her money and doing nothing for the cold, which is a virus. But if there are no harmful bacteria present then there will be no survival of the fittest and natural selection taking place.
The human body is not sterile. Your colon contains E. coli. That is the most common cause of urinary tract infections. Taking antibiotics you do not need can select out E.coli that become resistant.

Staph aureus is on pretty much everyone's skin, and many people now carry antibiotic resistant staph. It is not just something you pick up in a hospital.

Every use of an antibiotic contributes to the resistance problem.
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Old 11-27-2019, 11:10 PM
 
10,693 posts, read 4,964,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The human body is not sterile. Your colon contains E. coli. That is the most common cause of urinary tract infections. Taking antibiotics you do not need can select out E.coli that become resistant.

Staph aureus is on pretty much everyone's skin, and many people now carry antibiotic resistant staph. It is not just something you pick up in a hospital.

Every use of an antibiotic contributes to the resistance problem.

The E Coli in your colon are insulated from your bloodstream and furthermore need no resistance in the absence of antibiotics, which is approximately 99.99% of your lifespan. Same for staph.



As Mircea pointed out, all organisms mutate and given the reproductive cycle of bacteria, it is a mathematical certaintly that bacteria will become resistant to any antibiotics we develop no matter what we do. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - you or the CDC or mankind can recommend that will keep it from happening.


Maybe we should all destroy our immune systems since that also leads to resistance in ALL pathogens, viral and bacterial.
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Old Yesterday, 12:05 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
24,175 posts, read 29,253,119 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
The E Coli in your colon are insulated from your bloodstream and furthermore need no resistance in the absence of antibiotics, which is approximately 99.99% of your lifespan. Same for staph.



As Mircea pointed out, all organisms mutate and given the reproductive cycle of bacteria, it is a mathematical certaintly that bacteria will become resistant to any antibiotics we develop no matter what we do. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - you or the CDC or mankind can recommend that will keep it from happening.


Maybe we should all destroy our immune systems since that also leads to resistance in ALL pathogens, viral and bacterial.
The E.coli in your colon end up on your skin every time you poop, and for women that skin provides easy access to the urinary system. Creating multidrug resistant E. coli is Not A Good Idea.
Having your skin colonized with multidrug resistant staph is also Not A Good Idea in the event that you need surgery.

Every time you take an antibiotic you are increasing the pressure on the bacteria that are part of your particular microbial ecosystem to mutate in ways that may not be in your best interest in the future.

Your last sentence makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4034551/

"We can expect every molecule of antibiotics wherever present to select for the persistence of antibiotic-resistant strains (75). The normal faecal flora is an important reservoir for the development and selection of resistant bacteria. The carriage of ESBL-producing E. coli has increased dramatically during the last years, underlining the importance of the continuous selection of subpopulations of already resistant bacteria in the faecal flora. Globalization, the rapid and frequent traveling and the increasing international market exchange of foods and feeds, and modern health care will increase the spread and selection of resistant bacteria favouring the persistence of multi-resistant bacteria."

Last edited by suzy_q2010; Yesterday at 12:14 AM..
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Old Yesterday, 12:36 AM
 
10,693 posts, read 4,964,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Every time you take an antibiotic you are increasing the pressure on the bacteria that are part of your particular microbial ecosystem to mutate in ways that may not be in your best interest in the future.

Your last sentence makes no sense. I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Every moment you live you are increasing the pressure on the bacteria that are part of your particular microbial ecosystem to mutate in ways that may not be in your best interest in the future.


My last sentence is clear - your immune system attacks bacteria just as antibiotics do, and that bacteria develops resistance to it through natural selection. Vaccine resistance can also occur though less of a problem than drug resistance.
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Old Yesterday, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
24,175 posts, read 29,253,119 times
Reputation: 30056
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Every moment you live you are increasing the pressure on the bacteria that are part of your particular microbial ecosystem to mutate in ways that may not be in your best interest in the future.


My last sentence is clear - your immune system attacks bacteria just as antibiotics do, and that bacteria develops resistance to it through natural selection. Vaccine resistance can also occur though less of a problem than drug resistance.
None of that has anything to do with resistance to antibiotics, which develops to a specific antibiotic when bacteria are exposed to it. Bacteria can then transfer the genes they have developed that confer resistance to other bacteria. That includes bacteria in your own microbiome, and that is why unnecessarily exposing them to antibiotics when the antibiotic is not indicated is not a good idea.

You originally said, "For example, so what if a mom gives her kid antibiotics for a cold? Of course, she's wasting her money and doing nothing for the cold, which is a virus. But if there are no harmful bacteria present then there will be no survival of the fittest and natural selection taking place."

That is not true. All of us harbor bacteria that are potentially pathogenic.
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Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM
 
10,693 posts, read 4,964,698 times
Reputation: 14120
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
None of that has anything to do with resistance to antibiotics, which develops to a specific antibiotic when bacteria are exposed to it. Bacteria can then transfer the genes they have developed that confer resistance to other bacteria. That includes bacteria in your own microbiome, and that is why unnecessarily exposing them to antibiotics when the antibiotic is not indicated is not a good idea.

You originally said, "For example, so what if a mom gives her kid antibiotics for a cold? Of course, she's wasting her money and doing nothing for the cold, which is a virus. But if there are no harmful bacteria present then there will be no survival of the fittest and natural selection taking place."

That is not true. All of us harbor bacteria that are potentially pathogenic.

Bacteria don't develop genes but the genes that confer resistance will be more widely propogated.


Do the antibiotics get on your skin?


Bottom line, going back to what Mircea said, is that you can preach all day about "good ideas" and antibiotic regimens but you are just deluding yourself in thinking we can do anything to prevent resistance in bacteria.



The best way to slow it down is "take no survivors". Stop trying to kill the bacteria slowly with a minimal dose over 2 weeks which is virtually a conditioning process that ensures tougher bacteria. Double the dose and wipe it out in 7 days.
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