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Old 10-14-2009, 11:30 AM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,154,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
We've gotten this entire vaccine argument twisted backwards. The burden of proof now seems to be that unless one can prove that the vaccines are sufficiently dangerous to outweigh the benefits, we will proceed under the assumption that the benefits outweigh the risks. However, those benefits are in fact arbitrary assumptions that wouldn't stand up to detailed statistical analysis, and it is this argument that should be pursued. Prove that the benefits outweigh the risks!
Who really has time to do this? The clock is ticking, as you know. It's not a situation in which one has the luxury to do more than what has been done.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Twiggy,

There are no shots available in Maricopa County yet - ok, maybe a trickle but not for everyday folks yet. I've been following this on Twitter. CVS says they hope to have the shots by end of month.

What I can tell you is that I've had the flu shot every year for the past 25 and it's been a good idea. Haven't been really sick with the flu since I started doing this.

It's a personal decision as to whether you get your kids vaccinated. Many who have healthy children are not. Many are. Where my brother works they actually made an employee work from home as his two kids were sick with it.

People are taking this seriously. If I were you, I'd get them vaccinated. Oh, and I've heard of no bad reactions.
Oh, really, no shots for one of the places with the most H1N1 huh? ha ha Well, I will probably get it before I have access to the shot then, everyone around me has the flu right now.
After reading a lot about it this morning I have become less worried about all of us dying from it. lol Thanks Movin on, and nice to see you again.
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Old 10-14-2009, 12:27 PM
 
8,797 posts, read 5,338,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Who really has time to do this? The clock is ticking, as you know. It's not a situation in which one has the luxury to do more than what has been done.
With all due respect, no, I don't know. Who says the the clock is ticking? The WHO, that's who. Play on words maybe, but fact none the less.

And this entity, the World Health Organization has a rather dubious history and is far from deserving blind trust. This "ticking clock" is fear based thinking, and the massive fear mongering effort is designed to encourage the masses to line up and take these very profitable vaccines ... to cause people to demand those vaccines. And in some cases, it is apparently working quite well.

Guaranteed that if FOX news announced that the oil companies were going to rase the price of gas .25./gal tomorrow, every gas station in sight would have massive lines blocking traffic today. Most would lose more money in fuel and time than they stood to save. This is the heard mentality that makes this whole "marketing campaign" work. And that IS what it IS ... a marketing campaign to convince you to buy something.

The flu is an annual event. Has been around as long as we have, and we're still here. You're speaking as if we were talking about the return of the bubonic plague and the imminent extinction of mankind. The sky is not falling.

Fortunately, more and more people are beginning to recognize this, and are choosing to stop and take a deep breath, albeit hopefully not in the presence of someone who has recently taken FluMist and is coughing and sneezing
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Old 10-14-2009, 01:36 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,154,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
With all due respect, no, I don't know. Who says the the clock is ticking? The WHO, that's who. Play on words maybe, but fact none the less.

And this entity, the World Health Organization has a rather dubious history and is far from deserving blind trust. This "ticking clock" is fear based thinking, and the massive fear mongering effort is designed to encourage the masses to line up and take these very profitable vaccines ... to cause people to demand those vaccines. And in some cases, it is apparently working quite well.

Guaranteed that if FOX news announced that the oil companies were going to rase the price of gas .25./gal tomorrow, every gas station in sight would have massive lines blocking traffic today. Most would lose more money in fuel and time than they stood to save. This is the heard mentality that makes this whole "marketing campaign" work. And that IS what it IS ... a marketing campaign to convince you to buy something.

The flu is an annual event. Has been around as long as we have, and we're still here. You're speaking as if we were talking about the return of the bubonic plague and the imminent extinction of mankind. The sky is not falling.

Fortunately, more and more people are beginning to recognize this, and are choosing to stop and take a deep breath, albeit hopefully not in the presence of someone who has recently taken FluMist and is coughing and sneezing
Yes, the flu is an annual event. The strains of virus each year are somewhat related to the viruses of other years. In this sense, some have immunity based on other vaccines they've received in previous years - to THOSE viruses. This strain is novel - never before. Therefore, certain populations (well, all - unless one is 65 or older) have no immunity. Now, for those who have no underlying health issues, ok. I concede. Those are the people who perhaps have time to sit and ponder on this all. For those who do have problems that would lead to complications, they don't have this time. - the clock IS ticking for them. Therefore, it's important this vaccine gets rolled out ASAP. I for one am willing to risk it as I know the consequences if I don't take it. Someone else might not be comfortable with that risk. Fine, said people don't have to take it.

I'm am for mandating this for all health care personnel and yet I know this a hot debate for all concerned. The argument has been made that if someone refuses the vaccine he or she should not be a nurse. I guess I agree with this.

Also, I know you are anti-vaccine from your other posts, but I can only say I've been religious about getting flu vaccines for 25 years now and never have I had any negative outcomes. I am just glad the vaccines are available.
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Yes, the flu is an annual event. The strains of virus each year are somewhat related to the viruses of other years. In this sense, some have immunity based on other vaccines they've received in previous years - to THOSE viruses. This strain is novel - never before. Therefore, certain populations (well, all - unless one is 65 or older) have no immunity. Now, for those who have no underlying health issues, ok. I concede. Those are the people who perhaps have time to sit and ponder on this all. For those who do have problems that would lead to complications, they don't have this time. - the clock IS ticking for them. Therefore, it's important this vaccine gets rolled out ASAP. I for one am willing to risk it as I know the consequences if I don't take it. Someone else might not be comfortable with that risk. Fine, said people don't have to take it.

I'm am for mandating this for all health care personnel and yet I know this a hot debate for all concerned. The argument has been made that if someone refuses the vaccine he or she should not be a nurse. I guess I agree with this.

Also, I know you are anti-vaccine from your other posts, but I can only say I've been religious about getting flu vaccines for 25 years now and never have I had any negative outcomes. I am just glad the vaccines are available.
If you are convinced, and have no need for additional information, that is your decision.

If you do have an inquiring mind and are open to new information, read this:

Does the Vaccine Matter? - The Atlantic (November 2009)

The quick summary is that careful analysis of massive amounts of data show that the Flu vaccine (any Flu vaccine) offers no benefit whatsoever.

This of course is, within the sacred church of pharmacology, heresy of the highest form. Information is power, and I have yet to meet the person that knows everything.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:06 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,154,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
If you are convinced, and have no need for additional information, that is your decision.

If you do have an inquiring mind and are open to new information, read this:

Does the Vaccine Matter? - The Atlantic (November 2009)

The quick summary is that careful analysis of massive amounts of data show that the Flu vaccine (any Flu vaccine) offers no benefit whatsoever.

This of course is, within the sacred church of pharmacology, heresy of the highest form. Information is power, and I have yet to meet the person that knows everything.
Yup, I read that article yesterday. It is interesting. Anyone with an open mind should read it. The takeaway for me is that I am not going to change what I've been doing for 25 years. I never want another flu like the one I had. It's worth it to me to get them. Too, a can of tuna has more mercury than that you'd get in a vaccine.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:18 PM
 
8,797 posts, read 5,338,690 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Yup, I read that article yesterday. It is interesting. Anyone with an open mind should read it. The takeaway for me is that I am not going to change what I've been doing for 25 years. I never want another flu like the one I had. It's worth it to me to get them. Too, a can of tuna has more mercury than that you'd get in a vaccine.
Certainly your decision. But if the information is accurate and true, then it is only a myth that the vaccine protected you in the first place. So you either don't believe the information is true ... or I don't even know how to label the alternative.

As for the tuna issue .. processes are quite different for ingested mercury as compared to injected mercury. Too detailed to adequately convey here but has to do with the intestines and being excreted as well as stored in the liver, reducing the amount that might make it to, and be stored in the brain.

But the real issue I have with the injected h1n1 is not thimerosal. The thimerosal issue in a single dose flu vaccine (although no amount of mercury should be considered good for you) is probably not a major risk (if it is handled and administered properly).

It's the squalene adjuvant that is to be added to the h1n1 vaccine for distribution (an element not included in the vaccine that was tested).

This adjuvant has not (to my knowledge) been included in an approved vaccine, and no safety tests have ever been conducted. And there is good reason to be very weary of it as you might want to enlighten yourself:

Vaccine A: The Covert Government Experiment That’s Killing Our Soldiers by Gary Matsumoto

As I understand it, the h1n1 vaccine will contain many more times the amount of squalene that was in the experimental vaccines given to the gulf war troops suspected of being the major culprit in gulf war illness.

Far be it from me or anyone else to tell you what to do with your body ... I'd just like to see the same consideration coming from those that fully support mandated vaccines being forced upon the rest of us, against our desires.

As an important side note: The "handled and administered properly" caveat previously used is an important point that I have not seen brought up in any thread on vaccines. The multi-use viles of vaccine, if not shaken thoroughly before each use can allow .. mercury to concentrate in the vile, which could lead to an individual receiving 100, 200 times the estimated amount of mercury that they would otherwise receive. I have no idea how that might affect squalene, but that'sa lotta tuna fish.

And since these vaccines are going to be administered at Wal Marts, Schools, etc., the possibility of mishandling shouldn't be discounted. Are you going to insist on a brand new vile, and watch them shake it ... or just trust that they did so for the previous recipients before you?

I'm just sayin'
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:18 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,154,156 times
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GuyNTexas,

Where does it say that they are putting squalene into the vaccine? I did look at the article but saw no reference to H1n1. Also, I wouldn't go get the shot at a Walmart - rather dispensed by a real nurse.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:21 PM
 
3,440 posts, read 7,048,655 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by movin'on View Post
Who really has time to do this? The clock is ticking, as you know. It's not a situation in which one has the luxury to do more than what has been done.
If any substance or procedure that has the possibility of putting me in a pine box, or at the least, causing me to wind up crippled, then it's well worth the time to do the research.

As far as "time," I see people spend an indordane amout of time watching /analyzing football games, hanging out a pubs/bars all hours of the night and playing video games so I don't buy that excuse that you or anybody else has no time.
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Old 10-14-2009, 08:43 PM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,154,156 times
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Originally Posted by Morphous01 View Post
If any substance or procedure that has the possibility of putting me in a pine box, or at the least, causing me to wind up crippled, then it's well worth the time to do the research.

As far as "time," I see people spend an indordane amout of time watching /analyzing football games, hanging out a pubs/bars all hours of the night and playing video games so I don't buy that excuse that you or anybody else has no time.
If you are a person with no underlying health issues I agree with you.

Otherwise, I do not.
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