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Old 09-18-2010, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,970 posts, read 40,942,878 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Sorry to hear that. But, no one is claiming (certainly not me) that heart disease doesn't exist ... my father died at the age of 38 due to heart damage caused by rheumatic fever as a child ... two of his brothers died of heart attacks before the age of 45. So I'm no stranger to the subject.

The argument I present here is that cholesterol "intervention" is an act of treating a symptom, which not only fails to address the underlying malady (artery damage), but has deleterious side effects that may also include heart damage itself.

The buildup of plague within the arteries is the body's natural mechanism of repairing artery damage ... a natural bandaid for which reducing cholesterol is akin to removing the bandaids from your first aide box, expecting that act to prevent a cut finger.

The issue SHOULD BE to identify and address the cause of the artery damage, not circumvent natural body processes by short circuiting the body's ability to produce cholesterol which is needed for healthy brain activity as one of the unintended consequences.

Now, I am often viewed as totally anti-medicine, which is simply not the case at all. In fact, I just returned form taking my mother to the Baylor Medical College for which she just received a Keratoprosthesis, restoring vision in an eye that's been virtually blind for several years. And it really is an example of miraculous medical intervention, and the doctors and surgeons involved in such activities are highly skilled, tremendous examples of the great good medicine is capable of providing.

My views are formed based on specific details, and case by case processes which far to frequently rely on faulty foundations in the pharmacological intervention in curing disease.

The fundamental reality is that more often than not, pharmaceuticals do not cure disease, but simply mask symptoms, while creating new problems in the process. Worse yet, this fact is well understood, and is nothing more than profiteering on disease by pharmaceutical corporations who routinely and purposely withhold knowledge of the ill affects and lack of efficacy of their drugs purely for the sake of increasing revenues.

Such is the case with statins, among many others.
The problem is that the cholesterol "bandage" gets frayed, traps platelets and chokes off the lumen of the artery, resulting in strokes, heart attacks, and peripheral vascular disease.

Yes, inflammation of the arterial lining is probably the underlying process that triggers atherosclerosis. that is really not exactly news. The question has been how to prevent the inflammation. but you know what, statins apparently have an anti-inflammatory effect. See here: http://txtwriter.com/Onscience/OSpictures/statins.jpg . The chart shows the reduction in heart attacks and strokes in people with an elevated C reactive protein, a marker of inflammation.

As far as homocysteine is concerned, lowering blood levels may not help. See here: Effects of homocysteine-lowering with folic acid p... [JAMA. 2010] - PubMed result . This was a secondary prevention trial in people with a prior history of heart attack, making them high risk for another cardiovascular event. And here: Lowering homocysteine levels with folic acid and vitamin B12 does not appear to reduce risk of heart attack, stroke, study finds .

The bottom line: Get your vitamins from a well balanced diet that includes all major food groups, exercise regularly, keep your weight down, and do not reject out of hand medications that are of proven benefit in reducing cardiovascular disease.

Do you have any substantiation for the statements in your last two paragraphs?
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Old 09-18-2010, 09:07 PM
 
14,873 posts, read 8,484,317 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The problem is that the cholesterol "bandage" gets frayed, traps platelets and chokes off the lumen of the artery, resulting in strokes, heart attacks, and peripheral vascular disease.

Yes, inflammation of the arterial lining is probably the underlying process that triggers atherosclerosis. that is really not exactly news. The question has been how to prevent the inflammation. but you know what, statins apparently have an anti-inflammatory effect. See here: http://txtwriter.com/Onscience/OSpictures/statins.jpg . The chart shows the reduction in heart attacks and strokes in people with an elevated C reactive protein, a marker of inflammation.

As far as homocysteine is concerned, lowering blood levels may not help. See here: Effects of homocysteine-lowering with folic acid p... [JAMA. 2010] - PubMed result . This was a secondary prevention trial in people with a prior history of heart attack, making them high risk for another cardiovascular event. And here: Lowering homocysteine levels with folic acid and vitamin B12 does not appear to reduce risk of heart attack, stroke, study finds .

The bottom line: Get your vitamins from a well balanced diet that includes all major food groups, exercise regularly, keep your weight down, and do not reject out of hand medications that are of proven benefit in reducing cardiovascular disease.

Do you have any substantiation for the statements in your last two paragraphs?
To discuss this with you reasonably, you'd have to first understand that in my view, consulting JAMA is akin to the asking a suspect if he's guilty of a crime, and expecting an honest answer. Mainstream medical journals won't publish information that directly contradicts the status quo on any medical topic, and certainly has filtered out anything that might question the use of the most widely prescribed medication in existence (read: most profitable).

Time and again, the process used by pharmaceutical giants are as follows:

1) Find or create a disease, and develop and patent a chemical as a "treatment" for it.

2) Create trials and results that prove the drug is effective in treating this disease.

3) Bribe FDA officials into approving the drug as safe for everyone! (Even if it kills people.)

4) Advertise Advertise Advertise - showing unhappy, worried, sick people being transformed into perfectly healthy people, Yachting on the open waters like royalty.

5) Issue press releases to mainstream media outlets who will run your "Breakthrough" cure as legitimate news, rather than the propagandistic advertising it actually is.

6) Bribe doctors with vacations, extravagant meals and "consulting fees" in order to get them to prescribe your drug to as many patients as possible, while writing reviews for the medical journals.

7) Pay off politicians to pass legislation that blocks alternative medicine, giving the pharmaceutical company their monopoly, while also providing protections/limitations regarding lawsuits for damages.

8) Relax, and collect Billions ... and, years later, when the lawsuits roll in from the families of dead patients, simply use a small portion of your windfall profits to settle out of court, admitting no guilt.

9) Repeat steps 1-8 as often as possible.


So, with that said, I challenge the validity of the statement you made " ... do not reject out of hand medications that are of proven benefit in reducing cardiovascular disease" as a faulty assumption with regard to any medications, including statin medications. The fact is, the only thing proven is the ability of statins to reduce serum cholesterol levels ... but nothing more than that. And there are growing concerns that this isn't of the great benefit it's been touted to be, in spite of years of propaganda and misinformation from studies ostensibly conducted by the drug manufacturers themselves. In fact, the growing evidence is beginning to indicate that these statins do far more harm than good, if any good exists at all.

Of course I understand that from a mainstream point of view, this is heresy, and I am a heretic for saying so. But I'm firmly convinced, from the evidence I've reviewed, this is in fact true.

You see ... there is a major disconnect right out of the blocks when debating subjects like this .... on the one side, mainstream opinion is based on mainstream sources which opponents charge extreme bias in favor of the pharmaceuticals (and justifiably so in my opinion) for the OBVIOUS reasons. The mainstream proponents on the other hand believe ONLY what appears in the "peer reviewed" journals, dismissing the fact that such journals are effectively controlled by those who profit from the drugs. They dismiss out of hand any other information that contradicts their sources.

Consequently, providing you the sources which support my statements won't "substantiate" anything in your mind I'm afraid, unless you are more open minded than every other person I've argued these points with in the past.

But, here is one website with highly credentialed MD's, PhD's, etc that would support my statements, along with a lot more.

http://www.thincs.org/

Here are some comments on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEhAcxhYEaQ&feature=fvw

Last edited by GuyNTexas; 09-18-2010 at 09:53 PM..
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Old 09-18-2010, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,970 posts, read 40,942,878 times
Reputation: 44900
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
To discuss this with you reasonably, you'd have to first understand that in my view, consulting JAMA is akin to the asking a suspect if he's guilty of a crime, and expecting an honest answer. Mainstream medical journals won't publish information that directly contradicts the status quo on any medical topic, and certainly has filtered out anything that might question the use of the most widely prescribed medication in existence (read: most profitable).

Just maybe the contradictory information does not exist.

Time and again, the process used by pharmaceutical giants are as follows:

1) Find or create a disease, and develop and patent a chemical as a "treatment" for it.

Well, one of my grandfathers died of a heart attack while chasing one of his dairy cows. He was in his 40's, and this was a long time before statins, so I don't guess anyone "invented" coronary artery disease.

2) Create trials and results that prove the drug is effective in treating this disease.

I already know you don't believe in any trials. How about the research that resulted in the keratoprosthesis you mentioned in a previous post? Surgeons are the only doctors not in in medicine except to make money? From what I know about the procedure, I suspect it was not inexpensive --- and, hey, it hasn't been around too long, has it. Phase I trials were done in 2002: Elsevier . Will your Mom be involved in any kind of a follow-up, you know, study of, you know, maybe long-term effects? (I am being fascetious. I hope she does well. I think it is a really ingenious procedure.)



3) Bribe FDA officials into approving the drug as safe for everyone! (Even if it kills people.)

If you are going to make this statement, you need to tell me who bribed whom. Give names and dates. The police need to get involved.

4) Advertise Advertise Advertise - showing unhappy, worried, sick people being transformed into perfectly healthy people, Yachting on the open waters like royalty.

I hate direct - to - consumer advertising, too.

5) Issue press releases to mainstream media outlets who will run your "Breakthrough" cure as legitimate news, rather than the propagandistic advertising it actually is.

The media choose to report --- or not.

6) Bribe doctors with vacations, extravagant meals and "consulting fees" in order to get them to prescribe your drug to as many patients as possible, while writing reviews for the medical journals.

Again, name names, please. One doctor who has been paid to write a prescription. If a doctor attends a dinner to learn about a new medication, s/he may or may not prescribe the product. It is up to the doctor and patient to decide whether that medication is indicated. Choice of medication is often most dependent on the insurance company's formulary.

7) Pay off politicians to pass legislation that blocks alternative medicine, giving the pharmaceutical company their monopoly, while also providing protections/limitations regarding lawsuits for damages.

What protections from lawsuits?

8) Relax, and collect Billions ... and, years later, when the lawsuits roll in from the families of dead patients, simply use a small portion of your windfall profits to settle out of court, admitting no guilt.

And the lawyers are recruiting Hydroxycut users for lawsuits.

9) Repeat steps 1-8 as often as possible.


So, with that said, I challenge the validity of the statement you made " ... do not reject out of hand medications that are of proven benefit in reducing cardiovascular disease" as a faulty assumption with regard to any medications, including statin medications. The fact is, the only thing proven is the ability of statins to reduce serum cholesterol levels ... but nothing more than that.

Not true, but since you only believe surgical studies are valid and drug studies are not, I won't bother with the links.

And there are growing concerns that this isn't of the great benefit it's been touted to be, in spite of years of propaganda and misinformation from studies ostensibly conducted by the drug manufacturers themselves. In fact, the growing evidence is beginning to indicate that these statins do far more harm than good, if any good exists at all.

Again, since you have totally bought the pharma/doctors conspiracy theory, I won't bother with links.

Of course I understand that from a mainstream point of view, this is heresy, and I am a heretic for saying so. But I'm firmly convinced, from the evidence I've reviewed, this is in fact true.

What evidence?


You see ... there is a major disconnect right out of the blocks when debating subjects like this .... on the one side, mainstream opinion is based on mainstream sources which opponents charge extreme bias in favor of the pharmaceuticals (and justifiably so in my opinion) for the OBVIOUS reasons.

The mainstream proponents on the other hand believe ONLY what appears in the "peer reviewed" journals, dismissing the fact that such journals are effectively controlled by those who profit from the drugs.

Please provide evidence to support this statement.


They dismiss out of hand any other information that contradicts their sources.

Consequently, providing you the sources which support my statements won't "substantiate" anything in your mind I'm afraid, unless you are more open minded than every other person I've argued these points with in the past.

But, here is one website with highly credentialed MD's, PhD's, etc that would support my statements, along with a lot more.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

What a hoot!

Here are some comments on the subject:


YouTube - Your Cholesterol is NOT Killing You!

Still laughing. Went to Getoff's website. He's a naturopath who advocates removing amalgam fillings and drinking raw milk and thinks children "are just much younger adults."
Sorry, I just do not buy it!
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Old 09-19-2010, 10:57 AM
 
14,873 posts, read 8,484,317 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Sorry, I just do not buy it!
Just as I predicted you would do .... it's the same pattern over and over again ... "have any sources?" followed by rejection of the sources provided (NO MATTER WHAT OR WHO THE SOURCES ARE) followed by snide remarks and insinuations. But if that's how you want to proceed, fine ... these are just tactics employed by those who find themselves in a very WEAK position. So let's look over your "responses" for their relative responsiveness:

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Just maybe the contradictory information does not exist.
An OBVIOUS tactic ... of course you know the contradictory information existed, because you later say you aren't "buying it". A totally transparent TACTIC ... and not responsive. Not a legitimate form of debate or discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I already know you don't believe in any trials. How about the research that resulted in the keratoprosthesis you mentioned in a previous post? Surgeons are the only doctors not in in medicine except to make money? From what I know about the procedure, I suspect it was not inexpensive --- and, hey, it hasn't been around too long, has it. Phase I trials were done in 2002: Elsevier . Will your Mom be involved in any kind of a follow-up, you know, study of, you know, maybe long-term effects? (I am being fascetious. I hope she does well. I think it is a really ingenious procedure.)
This is once again a diversion off topic, as I have previously stated that I am not anti-medicine across the board ... and this particular issue has NOTHING to do with clinical trials of drugs performed by the respective drug manufacturers. Insofar as the keratoprosthesis is concerned ... one can "See" the results immediately (pun intended), and need not rely on "clinical studies" for efficacy. Unfortunately, part of this story revolves around horribly performed cataract surgery that butchered both her eyes to begin with, requiring several extraordinary follow on surgeries to repair. This is her second keratoprosthesis ... the other eye was done 5 years ago at Johns Hopkins. So not all surgeons are created equal, either ... there are bad ones, just as with any profession.

An interesting note: one of the patients of my Mom's surgeon was there to get the same procedure ... this person had had NINE (9) failed live tissue corneal transplants NINE !!!! (by another surgeon) NINE!!!! After, three failed one's, the rest were simply "milking" the insurance company and the patient. There is simply NO EXCUSE for ignoring the rejection issue, and performing 9 live tissue transplants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
3) Bribe FDA officials into approving the drug as safe for everyone! (Even if it kills people.)

If you are going to make this statement, you need to tell me who bribed whom. Give names and dates. The police need to get involved.
Please ... another blatant TACTIC ... the FDA has been caught red handed NUMEROUS times, including the release of internal memos acknowledging their withholding of information about the dangers of drugs they've given their approval for ... and the are WELL DOCUMENTED cases, too numerous to adequately list here, as well as a long list of drugs that they were eventually forced to remove from the market due to deaths and injuries. You'd have to be either living under a rock for the last 30 years, or a liar to play the ignorance card here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
I hate direct - to - consumer advertising, too.
This is a key point ... "Lipitor" what a scam job on the public ... it's fear mongering marketing ... "protect yourself" don't let cholesterol kill you ... ask your doctor if Lipitor is right for you ....

The common person has neither the expertise, or the common sense to diagnose and prescribe medications for themselves, but that is exactly what the commercial recommends ... "ask your doctor about Lipitor (As if Doc is going to forget). Ha! ANYONE outside of the pharmaceutical industry tried to pull this scam, the goon squad from the FDA would be shutting them down and locking them up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
5) Issue press releases to mainstream media outlets who will run your "Breakthrough" cure as legitimate news, rather than the propagandistic advertising it actually is.

The media choose to report --- or not.
No, they are paid to run these advertisements to appear to be "News Stories" for the gullible public. Lot's of people recognize pure advertising, but don't have a clue that this also comes in the form of "paid for news". And it's a fraud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
6) Bribe doctors with vacations, extravagant meals and "consulting fees" in order to get them to prescribe your drug to as many patients as possible, while writing reviews for the medical journals.

Again, name names, please. One doctor who has been paid to write a prescription. If a doctor attends a dinner to learn about a new medication, s/he may or may not prescribe the product. It is up to the doctor and patient to decide whether that medication is indicated. Choice of medication is often most dependent on the insurance company's formulary.
Again, pretending to be ignorant here? Or are you not pretending?


Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
7) Pay off politicians to pass legislation that blocks alternative medicine, giving the pharmaceutical company their monopoly, while also providing protections/limitations regarding lawsuits for damages.

What protections from lawsuits?
What protections? Are you freaking serious? What planet have you resided on all your life? There have been numerous and well publicized (and highly criticized) legislative efforts to exempt or limit damage claims against pharmaceutical companies ... and for the same lame reasons like "we don't want these companies too afraid to develop new drugs".


Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
8) Relax, and collect Billions ... and, years later, when the lawsuits roll in from the families of dead patients, simply use a small portion of your windfall profits to settle out of court, admitting no guilt.

And the lawyers are recruiting Hydroxycut users for lawsuits.

9) Repeat steps 1-8 as often as possible.
Another diversion ... since that is not a prescribed medication, but a supplement not under the purview of drug approval. Of course, supplements have long been on the Pharmaceutical industry's hit list ... anything that is natural and un-patentable, they'd love nothing more than to have ALL of them either banned or placed under FDA Approval process. And the gullible public believes it is to safeguard their health ... when in reality, the FDA's true purpose is to safeguard and advance the Pharmaceutical Industry's "almost" TOTAL MONOPOLY on health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post

Not true, but since you only believe surgical studies are valid and drug studies are not, I won't bother with the links.

Again, since you have totally bought the pharma/doctors conspiracy theory, I won't bother with links.

What evidence?

Please provide evidence to support this statement.
What evidence? You won't even look at the evidence ... you say so yourself ... then you ask again, what evidence ... only to say again you dismiss it without even looking at the evidence.

What a FRAUD ... and just as I predicted you'd do ..


Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

What a hoot!
Another TACTIC .... in your mind, you hope that no one will actually look at this because you label it a "Hoot". What is such a "Hoot"? Let me list just a few of the 85 highly credentialed Doctors and PhD's that are part of this "Hoot""

Allan, Christian PhD, Director of Manufacturing, Formulation and Analytical RegeneRx Biopharmaceuticals, 3 Bethesda Metro Center, Suite 630, Bethesda , MD 20814, USA.

Arfors, Karl-E; MD, PhD, Professor (microcirculation), previously Sidney Kimmel Cancer Center. La Jolla, Ca USA; present working place: Karolinska Institute; private: Hornsgatan 53, S-11849 Stockholm, Sweden.

Atrens, Dale; MD PhD, Research Scholar, River Centre Clinic, Sylvania, Ohio, USA; Reader Emeritus in Psychobiology, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia.

Bondarenko Igor G., MD, PhD, Nutritional/Clinical Biochemistry, CHYDENIUS Clinic, 00100 Helsinki Finland.

Borgers, Dieter; MD PhD, Professor Abteilung für Allgemeinmedizin, Universitätsklinikum Düsseldorf, Moorenstraße 5, 40225 Düsseldorf, Germany.

Broneer, Eric; MD, 91 Boulevard Chave, 13005 Marseille, France
Brownstein, David; MD, Medical Director, Center for Holistic Medicine, 5821 W. Maple Rd. Ste. 192, West Bloomfield, MI 48323, USA.

Clayton, Tom; MD 15 Mirror Ridge Drive, The Woodlands, Texas 77382

Dahlgren, Bertil; MD, BSc (Chemistry), specialist in rehabilitation and occupational medicine, ABC Livshälsan, Fjällgatan 23A, S-116 28 Stockholm, Sweden.

Groot, Paul; MD; PhD. Clinical cardiologist (retired), Medisch Centrum Haaglanden, Den Haag/Leidschendam. Present address: Wijkselaan 6. 2554GE Den Haag. Netherlands.

de Lorgeril, Michel, MD, Research Director at Centre National de la Reserche Scientifique (CNRS), Faculté de Médecine, Domaine de la Merci, Université de Grenoble, 38706 La Tronche Cedex, FRANCE.

Deutsch, Marshall E; PhD, 41 Concord Road, Sudbury, MA 01776-2328,USA.

Devroey, Edmund, MD. Retired Ob-Gyn/ Researcher, The Longevity Institute.

DuPont, Jason; MD, occupational medicine physician, 127 W. Wood Dr., Phoenix, 85029 Arizona, USA

Eckerly, Jean Ruth, MD, specialist in internal medicine, 13911 Ridgedale Drive, Minnetonka, Minnesota 55305

Enig, Mary; PhD, Nutritional Sciences Division, Enig Associates, Inc., 12501 Prosperity Drive, Suite 340, Silver Spring, MD 20904, USA.

Enkvist, Christer; MD, PhD, County Council Senior Surgeon, Regionens hus, S-462 80 Vänersborg, Sweden.

Freedland, Eric S; MD, Consulting Editor, Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders, 5 Bessom Street, No. 318, Marblehead, MA 01945, USA.

I'll stop here ... but this is just a small sample of the medical doctors from USA and around the world who understand and openly challenge the high cholesterol fraud and the dangers of statin drugs.

Now, perhaps YOU will provide us your credentials that would give credibility to you labeling these medical professionals "hoots" ?

Let me make something REALLY CLEAR here .... this response is not for YOUR BENEFIT or EDUCATION .... you've made it perfectly clear that you aren't interested in the TRUTH ... this is for anyone and everyone following along here that might be on the "Fence" about what is the actual truth.

And I must commend you ... I think you did more to "illuminate" the fraud within the "High Cholesterol" scam than I did ..... just not in the manner you intended.

Last edited by GuyNTexas; 09-19-2010 at 12:24 PM..
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Old 09-19-2010, 12:16 PM
 
14,873 posts, read 8,484,317 times
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For those unaware ... or have an incomplete understanding of the "High Cholesterol" issue ... here's the real deal.

First ... there is no such thing as "good" and "bad" cholesterol .... there is only cholesterol, and cholesterol is needed by the body to repair cells, provide for proper brain function, etc. The HDL/LDL "cholesterol" is not cholesterol .. these are proteins .. LDL or Low Density Lipoproteins (alleged bad cholesterol) "carry" cholesterol molecules to the various points of the body requiring it for normal functioning. HDL or High Density Lipoproteins (alleged good cholesterol) carry unused cholesterol back to the liver for recycling this valuable and complex molecule so the liver doesn't have to remanufacture them.

Statin drugs disrupt the liver's production of the Low Density protein carrier ostensibly to prevent this cholesterol from reaching the arteries, and hence, prevent blockages which are claimed to be responsible for cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately, by disrupting the body's natural cycle in this manner, it also prevents all of the other cells in the body from access to this much needed cholesterol, including the brain that is 50% (if I recall correctly) cholesterol by dry weight ... and needs steady supplies of cholesterol, particularly for memory function, but also required by the entire body for cell and muscle repair.

This explains the negative affects of statin drugs in the early onset of memory problems and dementia, and is especially harmful to elderly patients (one of the prime targets for high cholesterol statin drug intervention).

During this process, production of COQ10 is also disrupted ... an enzyme that has all sorts of benefits and uses including proper muscle function and repair (remember the heart is a muscle), as well as anti-cancer properties. And clinical studies have shown that low levels of cholesterol coincide with extremely higher rates of cancer development. (Special Note: Merc Pharmaceutical has a patent on a statin drug which has added COQ10 to it's formula, acknowledging the issue of COQ10 with statins, but has never marketed this particular product. Why? Because they either don't want to admit the issue is a problem with all of the other statins, or they don't care about the damage being caused by them).

One of the most shocking issues however is the fact that mortality rates in elderly people (including mortality rates of those diagnosed with cardiovascular disease) actually INCREASE as cholesterol levels decline. That's right!!!! These studies show that not only does the reduction of cholesterol by use of statin drugs produce negative consequences in areas such as brain function and cell and muscle repair, and increased cancer risks, but people with higher cholesterol levels LIVE LONGER than those with lower cholesterol.

This is almost too incredible to even consider, especially given the level of propaganda that has bombarded the public for so long about the danger of high cholesterol ... but it's true.

And there are many potential answers for why this is the case, why this is known by the industry, and why this information is being withheld, and none of them reflect well on mainstream medicine.

My personal opinion is that the first, obvious issue is that Statin drugs being the most widely prescribed medication on the planet produces the most profit to pharmaceutical companies, and they won't allow those profits to be compromised purely for the benefit of a healthier public. Secondly, the possibility certainly exists that the deleterious affects of these drugs are an additional source of income for the medical community in treating the various maladies and damage being caused by them ... a win-win for medicine, and a lose-lose for public health.

That may seem highly cynical on the surface, but only if you travel through life with blinders on, and refuse to acknowledge the plethora of evidence and examples of corporate profit being the the first and only real consideration for any industry, which most people would recognize, but at the same time, apparently excludes medicine for some misguided belief of special integrity possessed by these particular human beings that all others don't possess?

There is a lot of naive trust placed in the medical community at large, and those white coats are above reproach it seems, when it comes to ethics. Such is not the case with many other industries ... let's take the auto industry for example. Car makers have been known to take short cuts for profit sake, and everyone readily accepts the fact that profit always comes first and foremost, even above safety. And I think that no one would doubt the premise that there are auto mechanics out there that will pad their bills with unnecessary repairs for unsuspecting customers (women are especially victimized on a routine basis in this regard). And certainly, the auto mechanic would not applaud the development of an automobile that neither required maintenance of any type, nor ever broke down? They'd of course be out of business if such were the case ... as would auto manufacturers, parts manufacturers, etc. Everyone within the industry relies on automobiles to wear out (so you buy new ones), break so that they must be repaired etc.

But it is totally different in the medical industry? NOT HARDLY. The very last thing the American Cancer Society actually wants to see is an inexpensive and effective cure for cancer .... this MULTI-BILLION dollar industry would be out of business overnight.

Do you think the dermatologist would like to see a cheap, over the counter cream that would eliminate all skin disorders? Or the Heart Industry a total elimination of heart disease?

The Medical Industry is the LARGEST INDUSTRY in the United States ... and believe me, the entire industry EXISTS TOTALLY by the treatment of these diseases, and not the curing of them.

That's just the plain, hard cold truth of the matter.

Unsuspecting and naive people literally place there lives in the hands of their Doctors ... most of them don't even bother to educate themselves about the drugs and procedures they are subjected to. If the Doctor said ... eat this ... they'd eat it ... take this ... they'd take it ... no questions asked. Yet we keep getting sicker and sicker, while spending more money on healthcare than anyone else on the planet.

And no one bothers to wonder why? I'll tell you why .... your illness ... your sickliness is the food of this industry, so don't expect them to starve themselves by promoting wellness or seeking actual cures for disease. All of the money is in "treatments" not cures.

Sad, but true. And it's up to each individual to safeguard their own health, and their own best interests .... trusting someone else with that responsibility is pure foolishness.
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Old 09-19-2010, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,970 posts, read 40,942,878 times
Reputation: 44900
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Just as I predicted you would do .... it's the same pattern over and over again ... "have any sources?" followed by rejection of the sources provided (NO MATTER WHAT OR WHO THE SOURCES ARE) followed by snide remarks and insinuations. But if that's how you want to proceed, fine ... these are just tactics employed by those who find themselves in a very WEAK position. So let's look over your "responses" for their relative responsiveness:



An OBVIOUS tactic ... of course you know the contradictory information existed, because you later say you aren't "buying it". A totally transparent TACTIC ... and not responsive. Not a legitimate form of debate or discussion.

If you can't supply the source, attack the person asking for it, eh?


This is once again a diversion off topic, as I have previously stated that I am not anti-medicine across the board ... and this particular issue has NOTHING to do with clinical trails of drugs performed by the respective drug manufacturers. Insofar as the keratoprosthesis is concerned ... one can "See" the results immediately (pun intended), and need not rely on "clinical studies" for efficacy. Unfortunately, part of this story revolves around horribly performed cataract surgery that butchered both her eyes to begin with, requiring several extraordinary follow on surgeries to repair. This is her second keratoprosthesis ... the other eye was done 5 years ago at Johns Hopkins. So not all surgeons are created equal, either ... there are bad ones, just as with any profession.

An interesting note: one of the patients of my Mom's surgeon was there to get the same procedure ... this person had had NINE (9) failed live tissue corneal transplants NINE !!!! (by another surgeon) NINE!!!! After, three failed one's, the rest were simply "milking" the insurance company and the patient. There is simply NO EXCUSE for ignoring the rejection issue, and performing 9 live tissue transplants.

Actually, studies are needed, first to prove the feasibility of the procedure, then to monitor for long-term effects.

Please ... another blatant TACTIC ... the FDA has been caught red handed NUMEROUS times, including the release of internal memos acknowledging their withholding of information about the dangers of drugs they've given their approval for ... and the are WELL DOCUMENTED cases, too numerous to adequately list here, as well as a long list of drugs that they were eventually forced to remove from the market due to deaths and injuries. You'd have to be either living under a rock for the last 30 years, or a liar to play the ignorance card here.

Just list one, please. One memo. The name of one FDA official. And please do not call me a liar.

This is a key point ... "Lipitor" what a scam job on the public ... it's fear mongering marketing ... "protect yourself" don't let cholesterol kill you ... ask your doctor if Lipitor is right for you ....

The common person has neither the expertise, or the common sense to diagnose and prescribe medications for themselves, but that is exactly what the commercial recommends ... "ask your doctor about Lipitor (As if Doc is going to forget). Ha! ANYONE outside of the pharmaceutical industry tried to pull this scam, the goon squad from the FDA would be shutting them down and locking them up.

Already said I do not like direct to consumer advertising. Let's drop this one.


No, they are paid to run these advertisements to appear to be "News Stories" for the gullible public. Lot's of people recognize pure advertising, but don't have a clue that this also comes in the form of "paid for news". And it's a fraud.

Since it is published, please provide an example. A link to an ad masquerading as a news story. Just one.


Again, pretending to be ignorant here? Or are you not pretending?

Again, please name the names of doctors being paid to write prescriptions, or pharm companies that do so.


What protections? Are you freaking serious? What planet have you resided on all your life? There have been numerous and well publicized (and highly criticized) legislative efforts to exempt or limit damage claims against pharmaceutical companies ... and for the same lame reasons like "we don't want these companies too afraid to develop new drugs".

Please give links to the legislation that you are referring to.


Another diversion ... since that is not a prescribed medication, but a supplement not under the purview of drug approval. Of course, supplements have long been on the Pharmaceutical industry's hit list ... anything that is natural and un-patentable, they'd love nothing more than to have ALL of them either banned or placed under FDA Approval process. And the gullible public believes it is to safeguard their health ... when in reality, the FDA's true purpose is to safeguard and advance the Pharmaceutical Industry's "almost" TOTAL MONOPOLY on health.

But all supplements are safe? That is the reason they do not need to be regulated? The gullible public should trust the supplement manufacturers because they care only about "health", not about making money?


What evidence? You won't even look at the evidence ... you say so yourself ... then you ask again, what evidence ... only to say again you dismiss it without even looking at the evidence.
What a FRAUD ... and just as I predicted you'd do ..

Still haven't seen the evidence. You say it's out there, but when I ask for a concrete example you call me a fraud.


Another TACTIC .... in your mind, you hope that no one will actually look at this because you label it a "Hoot". What is such a "Hoot"? Let me list just a few of the 85 highly credentialed Doctors and PhD's that are part of this "Hoot""

Allan, Christian PhD, Director of Manufacturing, Formulation and Analytical RegeneRx Biopharmaceuticals, 3 Bethesda Metro Center, Suite 630, Bethesda , MD 20814, USA.

I thought you thought all pharmaceutical companies were out to defraud the public. This company is researching a heart attack drug. So you only believe drug companies are bad if they produce drugs that you personally do not believe in.

********************
Arfors, Karl-E; MD, PhD, Professor (microcirculation), previously Sidney Kimmel Cancer Center. La Jolla, Ca USA; present working place: Karolinska Institute; private: Hornsgatan 53, S-11849 Stockholm, Sweden.

He's on the board of a website that sells supplements.

***************************
Atrens, Dale; MD PhD, Research Scholar, River Centre Clinic, Sylvania, Ohio, USA; Reader Emeritus in Psychobiology, University of Sydney, Sydney, Australia.

Sells diet books.

************************************
Bondarenko Igor G., MD, PhD, Nutritional/Clinical Biochemistry, CHYDENIUS Clinic, 00100 Helsinki Finland.

An "orthomolecular" practitioner.

************************************************** *
Borgers, Dieter; MD PhD, Professor Abteilung für Allgemeinmedizin, Universitätsklinikum Düsseldorf, Moorenstraße 5, 40225 Düsseldorf, Germany.

Seems to be legit, but I cannot find anything about his personal stance on cholesterol.

************************************************** **************
Broneer, Eric; MD, 91 Boulevard Chave, 13005 Marseille, France

Can't find anything in English about him.

********************************
Brownstein, David; MD, Medical Director, Center for Holistic Medicine, 5821 W. Maple Rd. Ste. 192, West Bloomfield, MI 48323, USA.

He sells books. Have to give him my email to find out more. No thanks.

*********************************************
Clayton, Tom; MD 15 Mirror Ridge Drive, The Woodlands, Texas 77382

This Tom Clayton? : Tax protester history - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


************************************************** **************

Dahlgren, Bertil; MD, BSc (Chemistry), specialist in rehabilitation and occupational medicine, ABC Livshälsan, Fjällgatan 23A, S-116 28 Stockholm, Sweden.

Can't read the website --- it's in Swedish. Appears to be into "water fasting".


************************************************** ****
Groot, Paul; MD; PhD. Clinical cardiologist (retired), Medisch Centrum Haaglanden, Den Haag/Leidschendam. Present address: Wijkselaan 6. 2554GE Den Haag. Netherlands.

No information found.

*****************************************
de Lorgeril, Michel, MD, Research Director at Centre National de la Reserche Scientifique (CNRS), Faculté de Médecine, Domaine de la Merci, Université de Grenoble, 38706 La Tronche Cedex, FRANCE.

Another bookwriter. Proponent of the Mediterranean diet and omega-3 oils. O.K.

************************************************** ****
Deutsch, Marshall E; PhD, 41 Concord Road, Sudbury, MA 01776-2328,USA.

Believes that worrying about the amount of fat in your diet could cause you to have a heart attack.

************************************************** *************
Devroey, Edmund, MD. Retired Ob-Gyn/ Researcher, The Longevity Institute.

More supplements.

*****************************
DuPont, Jason; MD, occupational medicine physician, 127 W. Wood Dr., Phoenix, 85029 Arizona, USA

No information found.

************************************************

Eckerly, Jean Ruth, MD, specialist in internal medicine, 13911 Ridgedale Drive, Minnetonka, Minnesota 55305

No information found.

*****************************
Enig, Mary; PhD, Nutritional Sciences Division, Enig Associates, Inc., 12501 Prosperity Drive, Suite 340, Silver Spring, MD 20904, USA.

Another raw milk advocate.


*******************************************

Enkvist, Christer; MD, PhD, County Council Senior Surgeon, Regionens hus, S-462 80 Vänersborg, Sweden.

No information found.

*************************************

Freedland, Eric S; MD, Consulting Editor, Metabolic Syndrome and Related Disorders, 5 Bessom Street, No. 318, Marblehead, MA 01945, USA.

Seems legit. Believable. Not entirely anti-statin. Interesting.

************************************************** *******
I'll stop here ... but this is just a small sample of the medical doctors from USA and around the world who understand and openly challenge the high cholesterol fraud and the dangers of statin drugs.

Not all are medical doctors. And, again, just because the people believe what you want to believe makes them right. Isn't that what you accuse me of doing?

************************************************** *************

Now, perhaps YOU will provide us your credentials that would give credibility to you labeling these medical professionals "hoots" ?

Bachelor's and postgraduate degrees in biologic sciences. Over 40 years reading about medically related topics. And you?

Let me make something REALLY CLEAR here .... this response is not for YOUR BENEFIT or EDUCATION .... you've made it perfectly clear that you aren't interested in the TRUTH ...

Just because it is what you want to believe doesn't make it the TRUTH. You haven't proved anything you've said.

this is for anyone and everyone following along here that might be on the "Fence" about what is the actual truth.

And I must commend you ... I think you did more to "illuminate" the fraud within the "High Cholesterol" scam than I did ..... just not in the manner you intended.
The theme behind most of the people on your list is that they have chosen to make money from alternative medicine. They write books to sell, hold seminars, and sell supplements. They are free to do so, but it does not mean that they are experts on cholesterol.
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Old 09-20-2010, 03:32 AM
 
2,409 posts, read 3,031,896 times
Reputation: 2031
Cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease period. If you think this you are an idiot who has done zero research or worse you are so naive as to think big pharma, and big government has your best interests at heart. The statin drug market is a multibillion dollar market. Heart disease has been increasing over the past 75 years yet our intake of saturated fat and cholesterol has actually been decreasing.
Also vegetable oil consumption has skyrocketed. It is in EVERYTHING! Omega 6 and Omega 3 fatty acids exist in a very specific ratio in the human body. When these ar thrown off it causes a whole host of problems. The American diet is heavy on the Omega 6 polyunsaturates. Americans used to get most of their food from small family farms at the turn of the 18th century. Now it is big agribusiness supplying your food filled with antibiotics, soy, and vegetable oils.

And for the idiots criticizing orthomolecular medicine Linus Pauling was one of the most influential chemists of the 20th century having won 4 Nobel prizes.
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Old 09-20-2010, 11:27 AM
 
14,873 posts, read 8,484,317 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
The theme behind most of the people on your list is that they have chosen to make money from alternative medicine. They write books to sell, hold seminars, and sell supplements. They are free to do so, but it does not mean that they are experts on cholesterol.
No, the theme behind these medical professionals is that they have taken their Hippocratic Oath seriously, and are acting towards restoring the integrity of medicine and medical science.

They understand the stranglehold that the pharmaceutical industry has on medicine and it's cozy, revolving door relationship with the FDA. They recognize and understand the direct and obvious conflict of interests inherent in allowing drug manufacturers to fund and perform their own safety and efficacy studies and how this has facilitated the vast amount of harmful and useless drugs that have been and continue to be approved by the industry's lap dog and monopoly enforcement agency, the FDA.

The entire system is irreparably broken and corrupt, and has been for decades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
list one, please. One memo. The name of one FDA official. And please do not call me a liar.
First, I did not call you a liar ... I provided two possibilities ... liar was only one of them, with either woeful or willful ignorance being the other. So apparently, you have chosen the ignorance defense by insinuating that you are unaware of any FDA-Pharmaceutical corporate corruption of any sort ... asking for just ONE EXAMPLE?

Well, almost everyone (anyone that has taken a careful look into such matters, that is) is well aware of the "Aspartame" issue, approved by the FDA after a dozen or more years of rejection by FDA scientists. That's right, In 1980, Ronald Reagan appointed a new head to the FDA, and the very next day, the FDA approved Aspartame in spite of scientific protests within. Some FDA scientists resigned in protest. And this was 30 years ago.

Anyone who has actually been BREATHING and not comatose has at least heard of the VIOX disaster and the 144,000 Heart Attacks caused by it's use and the hundreds of lawsuits still in progress?

But you'd prefer to question sources rather than the information itself, which is more typical of deception than ignorance, in my opinion ... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and consider you woefully uninformed instead.

Here's one source challenging the propriety of the FDA that is hard to dismiss ... the FDA's OWN SCIENTISTS .....

FDA staff calls for end to corruption, wrongdoing : Covering Health

Quote:
Scientists and doctors with the FDA have sent a strongly worded letter to President Barack Obama calling for “sweeping measures are needed to end the systemic corruption and wrongdoing that permeates all levels of FDA and has plagued the Agency far too long.”
Now maybe this is just too broad for you, and you require more specifics ... Just ONE EXAMPLE aye? I could fill several pages with examples, but in order to be brief:

KETEK Antibiotic - FDA Scientist warns FDA approved "Ketek" a "Time Bomb"

Doctor: FDA-Approved Drug A 'Time Bomb' - CBS News

Excerpt: In an exclusive interview with CBS News, Ross, who reviewed Ketek's safety for the FDA, says he warned his superiors that the drug was, in his words, a "time bomb," and was shocked last summer when the acting head of the agency, Dr. Andrew Von Eschenbach, told employees to keep concerns about the drug in-house — and out of the press.

"He said, 'If you don't follow the team, if you don't do what you're supposed to do, the first time you'll be spoken to, the second time you'll be benched, and the third time, you'll be traded,'" Ross says.

Instead, Ross says, he quit the FDA in disgust.

"The leaders of an agency should not be holding a meeting to suggest dissenters should be kicked off the team," says Sen. Charles Grassley. "Particularly when the life of American people are at stake."

==========================================

AVANDIA - diabetes drug -The Food and Drug Administration voted overwhelmingly to keep the diabetes drug Avandia on the market, despite its known deadly effects. Two FDA committees met in Gaithersburg, Maryland, to consider whether the drug -- which has led to the deaths of 80,000 people -- should be pulled from the marketplace. They voted not to remove the drug.

==========================================

Now lets look just specifically at the "Statin Drugs" which is the topic of concern here:

Here, Special Report: Baycol Recall and Statin Warning | CVS Health Resources CVS Pharmacy provides it's industry propaganda ... outlining the risks of statin drugs, but focusses on the mainstream propaganda that the benefits far outweigh the risks ... and even goes as far as to say ...

Quote:
The American Heart Association and the American College of Cardiology have issued a joint statement agreeing that the benefits of statins -- strong protection against heart attacks -- far outweigh the risks. In May 2001, the National Cholesterol Education Program reported that as many as 36 million Americans should be taking a statin or other cholesterol-lowering medication.

In fact, the biggest danger with statins may be underuse. According to a report in the journal American Family Physician, many patients stop taking the drugs without their doctor's consent, thus opening the door to heart disease.
Gotta love this Orwellian nightmare called mainstream medicine ... the biggest danger in Statin drugs is UNDERUSE ???

There have been Statin drugs pulled from the market such as Baycol, and others for muscle tissue breakdown causing liver damage ... memory and dementia side effects ... but these are but a sample of the dozens of marketed Statins which operate under the SAME MECHANISMS and have the same effects ... just as one might be pulled from the market, two more may enter ... and the propaganda never stops.

I have been in a constant battle to protect my Mother from these GHOULS passing themselves off as "Healthcare Professionals" ... particularly the "Cardiologists" who continue to brow beat her into taking a Statin drug of one flavor or another, in spite of the fact that she's 75 ... which studies indicate Statin drug use in elderly woman provide NO HEALTH BENEFITS, but to provide significant health risks, including memory loss, muscle degeneration, and cardiomyopathy (likely due to the COQ10 depleting affects of Statin drugs).

CME LLC


And, the most amazing part is that people with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer!!!

I mean, JESUS KEY RIEST .... here ... take this for your heart ....???

Go read the book ... "The Great Cholesterol Con"

In that book you will discover:

A single disgruntled researcher, who conducted some of the sloppiest and most shamelessly biased research ever seen, was largely responsible for launching the anti-animal fat/anti-cholesterol mania as we know it today!

The rise in coronary heart disease that occurred during the twentieth century had nothing whatsoever to do with saturated fat intake!

Study after study has shown that people with so-called 'healthy' low cholesterol levels actually live shorter lives!

Upon closer scrutiny, the very studies that have formed the cornerstone of the anti-cholesterol argument actually show that cholesterol and saturated fat are not harmful!

Numerous populations consuming high saturated fat diets have been documented to enjoy very low rates of heart disease!

Over fifty years' worth of clinical dietary intervention trials have completely failed to show any mortality benefit among those following saturated fat-restricted diets - in fact, several of these studies showed higher death rates among those assigned to diets low in saturated fats!

Many dietary recommendations made by 'experts' to reduce heart disease have actually been shown in animal and human studies to increase heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity!

The primary force behind the anti-cholesterol paradigm is not public health, but greed! Drug companies, food companies, the medical profession, and health organizations all make billions in dollars of profit from the high cholesterol scam!

Now, I've outlined enough information for you here to better educate yourself, so there is no room now to claim simple ignorance. Now, you have only willful ignorance or dishonesty as the only alternatives henceforth.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,970 posts, read 40,942,878 times
Reputation: 44900
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer View Post
Cholesterol doesn't cause heart disease period. If you think this you are an idiot who has done zero research or worse you are so naive as to think big pharma, and big government has your best interests at heart. The statin drug market is a multibillion dollar market. Heart disease has been increasing over the past 75 years yet our intake of saturated fat and cholesterol has actually been decreasing.
Also vegetable oil consumption has skyrocketed. It is in EVERYTHING! Omega 6 and Omega 3 fatty acids exist in a very specific ratio in the human body. When these ar thrown off it causes a whole host of problems. The American diet is heavy on the Omega 6 polyunsaturates. Americans used to get most of their food from small family farms at the turn of the 18th century. Now it is big agribusiness supplying your food filled with antibiotics, soy, and vegetable oils.

And for the idiots criticizing orthomolecular medicine Linus Pauling was one of the most influential chemists of the 20th century having won 4 Nobel prizes.

Pauling won two Nobels, one for chemistry, the other was a Peace prize. Not four. He was obviously a great chemist, but his training was not in medicine and physiology, and his claims for vitamin C cannot be substantiated. See here: The Dark Side of Linus Pauling's Legacy . Taking megadoses of vitamin C did not prevent Pauling from dying of prostate cancer.

See here on orthomolecular medicine: Orthomolecular medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Over the last 30 years, coronary heart disease mortality in the USA has decreased by 50%. This is due to a combination of factors, including a significant contribution from decreased smoking and treatment of hypertension, but a significant percentage was due to statins and decreased cholesterol. See here:Elsevier .

As for the supposed big pharma & government conspiracy, there is a very good reason that something that big could not be kept under wraps in this country. There are far too many people who would love to be whistleblowers and far too many people who would love to win Pulitzer Prizes. It is just as reasonable to presume there is a conspiracy between supplement manufacturers and practitioners of alternative medicine to increase supplement sales. And few doctors actually sell the drugs they prescribe unless they must be administered in the office by injection or infusion. From the websites I have visited, the people who advocate the supplements usually sell them, too.

Finally, please refrain from calling the people who do not share your views idiots. You may consider my views idiotic, but namecalling is rude.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,970 posts, read 40,942,878 times
Reputation: 44900
Quote from GuyNTexas.

First, I did not call you a liar ... I provided two possibilities ... liar was only one of them,

Yep, you did. Please be civil.
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