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Old 09-20-2010, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,969 posts, read 40,935,301 times
Reputation: 44899

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
No, the theme behind these medical professionals is that they have taken their Hippocratic Oath seriously, and are acting towards restoring the integrity of medicine and medical science.

They understand the stranglehold that the pharmaceutical industry has on medicine and it's cozy, revolving door relationship with the FDA. They recognize and understand the direct and obvious conflict of interests inherent in allowing drug manufacturers to fund and perform their own safety and efficacy studies and how this has facilitated the vast amount of harmful and useless drugs that have been and continue to be approved by the industry's lap dog and monopoly enforcement agency, the FDA.

The entire system is irreparably broken and corrupt, and has been for decades.



First, I did not call you a liar ... I provided two possibilities ... liar was only one of them, with either woeful or willful ignorance being the other. So apparently, you have chosen the ignorance defense by insinuating that you are unaware of any FDA-Pharmaceutical corporate corruption of any sort ... asking for just ONE EXAMPLE?

Well, almost everyone (anyone that has taken a careful look into such matters, that is) is well aware of the "Aspartame" issue, approved by the FDA after a dozen or more years of rejection by FDA scientists. That's right, In 1980, Ronald Reagan appointed a new head to the FDA, and the very next day, the FDA approved Aspartame in spite of scientific protests within. Some FDA scientists resigned in protest. And this was 30 years ago.

Anyone who has actually been BREATHING and not comatose has at least heard of the VIOX disaster and the 144,000 Heart Attacks caused by it's use and the hundreds of lawsuits still in progress?

But you'd prefer to question sources rather than the information itself, which is more typical of deception than ignorance, in my opinion ... but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and consider you woefully uninformed instead.

Here's one source challenging the propriety of the FDA that is hard to dismiss ... the FDA's OWN SCIENTISTS .....

FDA staff calls for end to corruption, wrongdoing : Covering Health



Now maybe this is just too broad for you, and you require more specifics ... Just ONE EXAMPLE aye? I could fill several pages with examples, but in order to be brief:

KETEK Antibiotic - FDA Scientist warns FDA approved "Ketek" a "Time Bomb"

Doctor: FDA-Approved Drug A 'Time Bomb' - CBS News

Excerpt: In an exclusive interview with CBS News, Ross, who reviewed Ketek's safety for the FDA, says he warned his superiors that the drug was, in his words, a "time bomb," and was shocked last summer when the acting head of the agency, Dr. Andrew Von Eschenbach, told employees to keep concerns about the drug in-house — and out of the press.

"He said, 'If you don't follow the team, if you don't do what you're supposed to do, the first time you'll be spoken to, the second time you'll be benched, and the third time, you'll be traded,'" Ross says.

Instead, Ross says, he quit the FDA in disgust.

"The leaders of an agency should not be holding a meeting to suggest dissenters should be kicked off the team," says Sen. Charles Grassley. "Particularly when the life of American people are at stake."

==========================================

AVANDIA - diabetes drug -The Food and Drug Administration voted overwhelmingly to keep the diabetes drug Avandia on the market, despite its known deadly effects. Two FDA committees met in Gaithersburg, Maryland, to consider whether the drug -- which has led to the deaths of 80,000 people -- should be pulled from the marketplace. They voted not to remove the drug.

==========================================

Now lets look just specifically at the "Statin Drugs" which is the topic of concern here:

Here, Special Report: Baycol Recall and Statin Warning | CVS Health Resources CVS Pharmacy provides it's industry propaganda ... outlining the risks of statin drugs, but focusses on the mainstream propaganda that the benefits far outweigh the risks ... and even goes as far as to say ...



Gotta love this Orwellian nightmare called mainstream medicine ... the biggest danger in Statin drugs is UNDERUSE ???

There have been Statin drugs pulled from the market such as Baycol, and others for muscle tissue breakdown causing liver damage ... memory and dementia side effects ... but these are but a sample of the dozens of marketed Statins which operate under the SAME MECHANISMS and have the same effects ... just as one might be pulled from the market, two more may enter ... and the propaganda never stops.

I have been in a constant battle to protect my Mother from these GHOULS passing themselves off as "Healthcare Professionals" ... particularly the "Cardiologists" who continue to brow beat her into taking a Statin drug of one flavor or another, in spite of the fact that she's 75 ... which studies indicate Statin drug use in elderly woman provide NO HEALTH BENEFITS, but to provide significant health risks, including memory loss, muscle degeneration, and cardiomyopathy (likely due to the COQ10 depleting affects of Statin drugs).

CME LLC


And, the most amazing part is that people with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer!!!

I mean, JESUS KEY RIEST .... here ... take this for your heart ....???

Go read the book ... "The Great Cholesterol Con"

In that book you will discover:

A single disgruntled researcher, who conducted some of the sloppiest and most shamelessly biased research ever seen, was largely responsible for launching the anti-animal fat/anti-cholesterol mania as we know it today!

The rise in coronary heart disease that occurred during the twentieth century had nothing whatsoever to do with saturated fat intake!

Study after study has shown that people with so-called 'healthy' low cholesterol levels actually live shorter lives!

Upon closer scrutiny, the very studies that have formed the cornerstone of the anti-cholesterol argument actually show that cholesterol and saturated fat are not harmful!

Numerous populations consuming high saturated fat diets have been documented to enjoy very low rates of heart disease!

Over fifty years' worth of clinical dietary intervention trials have completely failed to show any mortality benefit among those following saturated fat-restricted diets - in fact, several of these studies showed higher death rates among those assigned to diets low in saturated fats!

Many dietary recommendations made by 'experts' to reduce heart disease have actually been shown in animal and human studies to increase heart disease, cancer, diabetes and obesity!

The primary force behind the anti-cholesterol paradigm is not public health, but greed! Drug companies, food companies, the medical profession, and health organizations all make billions in dollars of profit from the high cholesterol scam!

Now, I've outlined enough information for you here to better educate yourself, so there is no room now to claim simple ignorance. Now, you have only willful ignorance or dishonesty as the only alternatives henceforth.

Your post defeats your thesis. The drugs with problems will be uncovered. The people inside the FDA with concerns have found ways to make their concerns known.

And I am neither ignorant nor dishonest. Please stop the name calling.
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Old 09-20-2010, 12:57 PM
 
14,862 posts, read 8,480,415 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Pauling won two Nobels, one for chemistry, the other was a Peace prize. Not four. He was obviously a great chemist, but his training was not in medicine and physiology, and his claims for vitamin C cannot be substantiated. See here: The Dark Side of Linus Pauling's Legacy . Taking megadoses of vitamin C did not prevent Pauling from dying of prostate cancer.

See here on orthomolecular medicine: Orthomolecular medicine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

Over the last 30 years, coronary heart disease mortality in the USA has decreased by 50%. This is due to a combination of factors, including a significant contribution from decreased smoking and treatment of hypertension, but a significant percentage was due to statins and decreased cholesterol. See here:Elsevier .

As for the supposed big pharma & government conspiracy, there is a very good reason that something that big could not be kept under wraps in this country. There are far too many people who would love to be whistleblowers and far too many people who would love to win Pulitzer Prizes. It is just as reasonable to presume there is a conspiracy between supplement manufacturers and practitioners of alternative medicine to increase supplement sales. And few doctors actually sell the drugs they prescribe unless they must be administered in the office by injection or infusion. From the websites I have visited, the people who advocate the supplements usually sell them, too.

Finally, please refrain from calling the people who do not share your views idiots. You may consider my views idiotic, but namecalling is rude.
That is the most blatant load of manure I've ever seen ... heart disease has decreased by 50% ??? Heart disease IS NOT DECREASING ... it is INCREASING:

Heart Disease Deaths Increasing in Middle-Aged Adults - Carilion Clinic

BBC NEWS | Health | Heart disease 'on the increase'

Heart Disease Death Rates Going Up In Young US Women

Heart-disease rates increase for women / LJWorld.com

So that is the FIRST FALLACY THAT YOU CAN CONSIDER UTTERLY DISMISSED.

Now, I already provided you this link ... you called it a "hoot". You refused to even look at the information, but I WILL NOT LET YOU SPREAD YOUR PROPAGANDA unchallenged.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

READ, LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF:

A heart medicine causing heart failure? Early 2002, a group of Australian cardiologists appealed in The American Journal of Cardiology for an independent study into this supposed, paradoxical ‘side effect’. Chronic heart failure, a disabling disease in which the heart muscle slowly but steadily loses its ability to pump, is becoming more and more common in the western world. So common, that it can not be explained by the increasing age of the population and the growing number of people surviving an acute heart problem, according to the authors of the article. They add that ‘observant doctors all over the world suspect a role for the generously prescribed statins’.

This suspicion is of course not falling out of the bright blue sky. “Statins make victims – a lot of victims – and by now it’s pretty clear how they do it,” is the bold comment of cardiologist Dr. Peter Langsjoen from Tyler, Texas, USA. Langsjoen gave up an attractive career in a university hospital to dedicate his competence to what he calls ‘statin induced congestive heart failure’. Langsjoen: “Statins block the enzyme HMG CoA-reductase.

This enzyme is responsible for the production of a substance called ‘mevalonate’. Mevalonate on its turn is the precursor of both cholesterol and co-enzyme Q10. This Q10 – also called ubiquinone because it is involved in myriads of physiological processes – is essential for the function of the mitochondria, the energy plants in our cells. Someone using statins, not only deprives the body from cholesterol, but also from a great deal of the Q10 normally being produced. The higher the statin dose, the less of both essential factors will be available to the body. The cells most depending on Q10 are those from the nerve system, the skeletal muscles, but particularly those from the heart muscle. Heart muscle cells literally stuff themselves with Q10. If they don´t get enough, they’ll say goodnight sooner or later. That’s the moment the patient presents with symptoms of heart failure. Older statin users will develop dangerously low levels within 6 to 12 months. For younger people it might take several years before problems manifest.”

What are those symptoms? Mainly extreme tiredness and muscle and joint pain, according to Langsjoen. Later on, shortness of breath may follow. “I see 2 to 3 new cases of statin induced heart failure per week in my practice. The first things I do are to measure their Q10 levels and improve them with a supplement. By the way, in Japan supplementing Q10 is a routine intervention in patients with congestive heart failure. The treatment is well documented.”

Last year Langsjoen published own research in which he observed that two thirds of elder statin users show signs of ‘diastolic dysfunction’, one of the first signs of heart failure, after only six months of therapy. ”Physicians are prescribing these drugs with reckless abandon. We’re talking about extremely tricky stuff.”

In the summer of 2001 a striking amount of people ‘suddenly’ died of rhabdomyolysis, a ‘rare but very serious side effect of statin use’. All these people were on Baycol/Lipobay (cerivastatin), a statin that Bayer introduced three years earlier. When an aggressive strategy of denial didn’t work, the company saw no other way out than to take the pill that was meant to be their flagship from the market.

Was Baycol/Lipobay so much more dangerous than her sisters from the competitors? “It was a very potent statin,” explains Langsjoen. “But Pfizers’ Lipitor is only a little bit less potent and is thus only killing a little fewer people. A statin is a statin.” After the Baycol/Lipobay incident a group of scientists, lead by the Italian biochemist Gian Paolo Littarru, send a petition to the FDA and to the health authorities from the EU. From this petition: “It is possible that the reported statin related deaths are the top of an iceberg. (….) The extent of the observed statin induced Q10 deprivation should not be underestimated. There are indications that we doctors, with the best intentions, are creating a life-threatening situation in million of healthy patients. Conclusive research shows that supplementing this humble molecule could prevent tremendous suffering and cost.

=================================

Now this is the unvarnished ... un-paid-for-by-pharmaceutical-corporate-killers TRUTH!

They are reaping 20 Billion in revenues for statin drugs ... and these drugs are "slow kill" drugs which are contributing to INCREASED HEART DISEASE, and a double-dip revenue stream in treating this statin induced heart disease perpetrated on the public under the guise of preventive health.

This is being done PURPOSELY, and with full knowledge of it's negative affects on health by insiders within the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA.

Whether or not the average medical doctor is aware of these facts is unclear, due to the fact that they follow the guidelines established by the AMA and the prominent medical journals and the FDA. If they don't, they subject themselves to a great number of "professional problems", while going along with the status quo is far less trouble and far more lucrative.

So, I suspect many of them are just negligently ignorant, while some others know but choose not to make waves or cause themselves hardships for going "against the grain".

The reality is, this is only the TIP OF THE ICEBERG ... and statin drugs are just one of many weapons being used to destroy the public health, which includes a plethora of other drugs ... fluoride in the water ... chemicals in the food ... and CANCER VIRUSES IN THE VACCINES (and I dare you to ask for documentation of this fact ... I DARE YOU!!! )

All of this is coincidently under the watchful and obedient eyes of the Food and Drug Administration.

Conspiracy Theory ? No .... CONSPIRACY FACT. And it's a very big, very deadly business.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:16 PM
 
Location: NC
1,225 posts, read 2,411,450 times
Reputation: 673
Interesting. So will Obama next decide to do a Food and Drug Reform act?..I could see that happening.
Guy I was just wondering what your qualification are on this matter..You seem to be acting as an "expert" on this subject.
I am "on the fence" with this to be honest as I just dont quite believe there is a major conspiracy out there just for the almighty dollar. I do believe these negative consequences are more the exception not the rule here. I mean you have drugs that are effectively "regulated" by the FDA and suppliments that are not at all, so really you are taking chances no matter what.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,969 posts, read 40,935,301 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
That is the most blatant load of manure I've ever seen ... heart disease has decreased by 50% ??? Heart disease IS NOT DECREASING ... it is INCREASING:

Heart Disease Deaths Increasing in Middle-Aged Adults - Carilion Clinic

The title for the article is contradicted by the content. The article actually references the same article I used. The point of concern is that the decrease in the rate is plateauing for middle aged men and there was a small increase for middle aged women. the article goes on to discuss risk factors, including rising obesity rates and cholesterol levels. Did you read the whole article?

BBC NEWS | Health | Heart disease 'on the increase'

Again, did you actually read this or just the title? Coronary heart disease deaths are decreasing in the UK.

[SIZE=2]Health Secretary John Reid said: "I am pleased that the figures recognise the success we are having on reducing the number of deaths from cardiovascular disease by 23% over the last five years. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]"We are ensuring that this positive step continues, for example by allowing statins - a drug that reduces the risk of heart attack - to be available without a prescription." [/SIZE]

Heart Disease Death Rates Going Up In Young US Women

Again, referencing the same article I used with the same comment as above.

"For women aged 35 to 54 the news is worse. The average annual decline in deaths due to heart disease fell by 5.4 per cent in the 1980s, slowed to 1.2 per cent in the 1990s, and actually rose again by an annual average of 1.5 per cent during 2000 to 2002. However, THE INCREASE WAS NOT STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT (emphasis mine) and all that can be said with confidence is that the figures have levelled off."

Heart-disease rates increase for women / LJWorld.com

This one was a comparison of male and female rates. Did you read the whole thing, or just the title?

"In both time periods, men had more heart attacks than women. But the rates of men improved from 2.5 percent in the earlier period to 2.2 percent in the second time frame while women’s rates increased from 0.7 percent to 1 percent."


So that is the FIRST FALLACY THAT YOU CAN CONSIDER UTTERLY DISMISSED.

Nope, your own references fail to make your point.

Now, I already provided you this link ... you called it a "hoot". You refused to even look at the information, but I WILL NOT LET YOU SPREAD YOUR PROPAGANDA unchallenged.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

I've already made my point about the skeptics. Too many of them have a financial interest in alternative medicine.

READ, LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF:

A heart medicine causing heart failure? Early 2002, a group of Australian cardiologists appealed in The American Journal of Cardiology for an independent study into this supposed, paradoxical ‘side effect’. Chronic heart failure, a disabling disease in which the heart muscle slowly but steadily loses its ability to pump, is becoming more and more common in the western world. So common, that it can not be explained by the increasing age of the population and the growing number of people surviving an acute heart problem, according to the authors of the article. They add that ‘observant doctors all over the world suspect a role for the generously prescribed statins’.

This suspicion is of course not falling out of the bright blue sky. “Statins make victims – a lot of victims – and by now it’s pretty clear how they do it,” is the bold comment of cardiologist Dr. Peter Langsjoen from Tyler, Texas, USA. Langsjoen gave up an attractive career in a university hospital to dedicate his competence to what he calls ‘statin induced congestive heart failure’. Langsjoen: “Statins block the enzyme HMG CoA-reductase.

This enzyme is responsible for the production of a substance called ‘mevalonate’. Mevalonate on its turn is the precursor of both cholesterol and co-enzyme Q10. This Q10 – also called ubiquinone because it is involved in myriads of physiological processes – is essential for the function of the mitochondria, the energy plants in our cells. Someone using statins, not only deprives the body from cholesterol, but also from a great deal of the Q10 normally being produced. The higher the statin dose, the less of both essential factors will be available to the body. The cells most depending on Q10 are those from the nerve system, the skeletal muscles, but particularly those from the heart muscle. Heart muscle cells literally stuff themselves with Q10. If they don´t get enough, they’ll say goodnight sooner or later. That’s the moment the patient presents with symptoms of heart failure. Older statin users will develop dangerously low levels within 6 to 12 months. For younger people it might take several years before problems manifest.”

What are those symptoms? Mainly extreme tiredness and muscle and joint pain, according to Langsjoen. Later on, shortness of breath may follow. “I see 2 to 3 new cases of statin induced heart failure per week in my practice. The first things I do are to measure their Q10 levels and improve them with a supplement. By the way, in Japan supplementing Q10 is a routine intervention in patients with congestive heart failure. The treatment is well documented.”

Last year Langsjoen published own research in which he observed that two thirds of elder statin users show signs of ‘diastolic dysfunction’, one of the first signs of heart failure, after only six months of therapy. ”Physicians are prescribing these drugs with reckless abandon. We’re talking about extremely tricky stuff.”

In the summer of 2001 a striking amount of people ‘suddenly’ died of rhabdomyolysis, a ‘rare but very serious side effect of statin use’. All these people were on Baycol/Lipobay (cerivastatin), a statin that Bayer introduced three years earlier. When an aggressive strategy of denial didn’t work, the company saw no other way out than to take the pill that was meant to be their flagship from the market.

Was Baycol/Lipobay so much more dangerous than her sisters from the competitors? “It was a very potent statin,” explains Langsjoen. “But Pfizers’ Lipitor is only a little bit less potent and is thus only killing a little fewer people. A statin is a statin.” After the Baycol/Lipobay incident a group of scientists, lead by the Italian biochemist Gian Paolo Littarru, send a petition to the FDA and to the health authorities from the EU. From this petition: “It is possible that the reported statin related deaths are the top of an iceberg. (….) The extent of the observed statin induced Q10 deprivation should not be underestimated. There are indications that we doctors, with the best intentions, are creating a life-threatening situation in million of healthy patients. Conclusive research shows that supplementing this humble molecule could prevent tremendous suffering and cost.

=================================

This was a big multinational trial, so I guess you will just upgrade the conspiracy theory to a multinational one, but see here: theheart.org: trusted cardiology news and opinions

The statin did not help heart failure patients, but it did not kill them either. It did seem to reduce heart attacks and strokes.



Now this is the unvarnished ... un-paid-for-by-pharmaceutical-corporate-killers TRUTH!

They are reaping 20 Billion in revenues for statin drugs ... and these drugs are "slow kill" drugs which are contributing to INCREASED HEART DISEASE, and a double-dip revenue stream in treating this statin induced heart disease perpetrated on the public under the guise of preventive health.

This is being done PURPOSELY, and with full knowledge of it's negative affects on health by insiders within the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA.

Whether or not the average medical doctor is aware of these facts is unclear, due to the fact that they follow the guidelines established by the AMA and the prominent medical journals and the FDA. If they don't, they subject themselves to a great number of "professional problems", while going along with the status quo is far less trouble and far more lucrative.

So, I suspect many of them are just negligently ignorant, while some others know but choose not to make waves or cause themselves hardships for going "against the grain".

The reality is, this is only the TIP OF THE ICEBERG ... and statin drugs are just one of many weapons being used to destroy the public health, which includes a plethora of other drugs ... fluoride in the water ... chemicals in the food ... and CANCER VIRUSES IN THE VACCINES (and I dare you to ask for documentation of this fact ... I DARE YOU!!! )

I believe the thread is about cholesterol and heart disease. You started it, remember? Let's stay on topic. And, yes, I know about SV 40 in polio vaccine. There is no evidence that it has caused human cancer.

All of this is coincidently under the watchful and obedient eyes of the Food and Drug Administration.

Conspiracy Theory ? No .... CONSPIRACY FACT. And it's a very big, very deadly business.
Look, you are fee to not use statins if you wish. With my family history of heart attack and stroke, I choose to take one, and niacin. I'll admit I need to work on the weight and exercise more, but I am trying. And, I'll tell you a secret. I also take CoQ10!

By the way, you never told me what your scientific credentials are.
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Old 09-20-2010, 04:00 PM
 
14,862 posts, read 8,480,415 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Novadhd5150 View Post
Interesting. So will Obama next decide to do a Food and Drug Reform act?..I could see that happening.
Guy I was just wondering what your qualification are on this matter..You seem to be acting as an "expert" on this subject.
I am "on the fence" with this to be honest as I just dont quite believe there is a major conspiracy out there just for the almighty dollar. I do believe these negative consequences are more the exception not the rule here. I mean you have drugs that are effectively "regulated" by the FDA and suppliments that are not at all, so really you are taking chances no matter what.
I suppose the first step is to define expert, and the dictionary defines this as someone with comprehensive or authoritative knowledge of a particular subject. So, in that sense, I would qualify based on a broad and comprehensive understanding of the subjects I choose to discuss, based on a great deal of personal research and study ... which, by the way, is available to anyone. I have no secret sources of information ... it's all out there available to anyone.

Now, by stating that you are "on the fence" suggests an open mind that has not yet definitively attached itself to an established position, yet your rejecting the idea of a conspiracy is your major error here.

Nothing of any significance happens randomly or by chance insofar as government and corporate activities are concerned. When Billions of dollars are at hand, you can bet these dollars do not simply flop into the laps of the wealthy elitists by happenstance ... that's the first point.

The second point is that when you see numerous examples that follow similar patterns, and discover numerous connections to the same entities ... you can legitimately look at this as a very strong likelihood of coordination .. or conspiracy.

The fact is ... the more you study, the more you will become convinced of the undeniable (in my view) situation that more often than not, what mainstream sources claim is almost always the EXACT OPPOSITE of reality.

And this holds true pretty much across the board, whether you are dealing with pharmaceutical drugs, or government policies .. or any other topic ... you pick it ... it generally follows that pattern.

Examples? Fluoride ... claimed to be good for your teeth and is added to most drinking water and all of the national brands of toothpaste, when in reality it causes dental fluorosis, among many other ill health affects:

Dental Fluorosis

It's important to note that the first historic use of fluoride as an additive to water was done by the Nazis who added fluoride to the water supplied to concentration camp prisoners. And I don't think it takes a great deal of brilliance or intelligence to consider that the Nazis really didn't care bout their death camp prisoner's dental health concerns or pearly white smiles ... do you? Of course you don't .. that would be ridiculous. But ....

The important thing to become aware of is the psychological technique being employed .... the greater the lie, the easier it seems to get people to believe it, and the harder it is to convince them not to after they do. All your life you've had it drummed into your mind that fluoride is good for your teeth, so when I come along and say .. no .. it's really bad for your teeth and lots of other bad affects too ... immediately, your mind wants to dismiss this as nonsense, because it not only conflicts with what you believe is true ... it is the complete opposite, and that alone prevents you from considering this new information, no matter how rational the argument presented.

It's the very same issue with the topic at hand ... Statin Drugs and Cholesterol .... for decades we've been bombarded with the connections between saturated fat, cholesterol, and heart disease, and how high cholesterol was so dangerous to your heart. And BILLIONS have been spent to continue this message over the past few decades. What is lost is the fact that Hundreds of Billions, if not trillions have been made on these Statin drugs and the treatment of the various ill affects of their use during that time frame. And, this is all a part of the greater agenda that began in the 1940s through 1970's in an enormous agricultural shift to soybeans which are now the largest US cash crop, and the entire "saturated fat" craze of the 1960's and 1970's. All of these issues are tied together.

Remember the margarine craze? Don't eat that butter .. it's bad for your heart? Eat hydrogenated soil oil margarine instead? Then, 20 years later it was "oops" ... maybe that margarine isn't all that good for you after all? But don't worry, we'll remove the trans fats and everything will be fine?

Today, soy oil is in EVERYTHING ... and guess what? It's literally sterilizing the population. Just two tablespoons of soy a week will reduce sperm counts in males by 50% ... and the modern American diet consists of several times that much soy ... not counting the health food types who think soy is such a great thing, and drink soy milk, eat tofu .. etc. The estrogenic action produced by soy in the human body is literally like taking several female birth control pills a day ... and this is having a terrible affect on young boys and girls .. as well as adults.

I could go on an on here ... but it's simply impossible to convey to you 20+ years of personal knowledge gained through research and study in the space of a few posts in this forum.

What I can do, and what I think I've done is point you in the right direction if you want to study the subjects yourself ... but that's entirely up to you.
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Old 09-21-2010, 06:24 AM
 
14,862 posts, read 8,480,415 times
Reputation: 7306
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Look, you are fee to not use statins if you wish. With my family history of heart attack and stroke, I choose to take one, and niacin. I'll admit I need to work on the weight and exercise more, but I am trying. And, I'll tell you a secret. I also take CoQ10!

By the way, you never told me what your scientific credentials are.
My credentials? Oh, 148 IQ, and an insatiable appetite for information ... coupled with being old enough to have experiential knowledge of many of the issues I choose to discuss and help others better understand, which is based on that experience and years of in depth study, often amounting to a decade or more.

And one of the subjects for which I have studied most strenuously, and for the greatest length of time is health, and particularly heart, since my father and two out of three of his brothers all died before the age of 45 due to heart ailments.

But by posing that very question, you highlight one of the main issues here .... you see, this isn't about my credentials. That doesn't mean a thing ... I'm not performing these studies ... I'm not witnessing 2 and 3 fold increases in heart ailments in my patients who take statin drugs ... I'm not the molecular biologist who traces the affects of these drugs on the enzymatic activity within the human body and the chain reactions taking place .. I'm not the neurologist who is measuring the decline in memory function based on it's starvation of cholesterol supply directly resulting from statin drug use. So this isn't about me at all. This is about the ability or lack thereof in processing new information, which seems to be very problematic for many people these days, you apparently being one such example.

I show you a list of highly "credentialed" MD's and PhD's who are warning of the ill affects of these drugs and how do you respond? By claiming that they are motivated financially to advance natural medicine .. IGNORING the 20 Billion per year motive of the pharmaceutical companies that make the drugs??? This makes sense to you? This is reasonable?

No, it does not make any sense at all. Not one iota. Taking these drugs because you feel you are a high risk for heart and stroke issues, while thoroughly ignoring the information that claims that Statin drugs actually harm instead of help, and may worsen or increase risks of heart attack and stroke is ..... MIND NUMBING. I'm sorry to tell you that this is a demonstration of a complete disconnect with rational thought processes ...

Let's see .... studies show that those with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer .... so in an effort to live longer, you want to lower yours? And you don't think this brings into question your fundamental reasoning skills?

And stop with the nonsense about name calling ... this isn't name calling .. this is simply pointing out when someone is saying something ridiculously backwards.

THINK..
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Old 09-21-2010, 09:35 AM
 
Location: NC
1,225 posts, read 2,411,450 times
Reputation: 673
GUY-I stand corrected. I am back to being on then fence.
BUT, from what I read on Mayo Clinics website that hardening of the arteries (Arterioscleroses)SP?
Is leading cause of heart disease. I have always thought and been told that too much cholesterol buildup will cause plaque build up in the artery wall and cause them to "harden"..I understand the cholestoral is produced naturally in the body but too much of it can be bad, no? Or at least too much of LDL and tryglicerides from what I gather..This can lead to ruptures in the arteries and cause heart attacks..If this is not true then what is causing the ruptures?
I do agree there are many causes of heart disease so with your logic then my dad probably died from other causes such as irregular heart beat, heart damage, or deformaty..He was rather large guy but not overweight..
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,969 posts, read 40,935,301 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
My credentials? Oh, 148 IQ, and an insatiable appetite for information ... coupled with being old enough to have experiential knowledge of many of the issues I choose to discuss and help others better understand, which is based on that experience and years of in depth study, often amounting to a decade or more.

Congratulations. We both qualify for Mensa!

And one of the subjects for which I have studied most strenuously, and for the greatest length of time is health, and particularly heart, since my father and two out of three of his brothers all died before the age of 45 due to heart ailments.

But by posing that very question, you highlight one of the main issues here .... you see, this isn't about my credentials. You were the one who asked about my credentials, remember? Turn about is fair play. I take it you have no formal scientific training.That doesn't mean a thing ... I'm not performing these studies ... I'm not witnessing 2 and 3 fold increases in heart ailments in my patients who take statin drugs ... I'm not the molecular biologist who traces the affects of these drugs on the enzymatic activity within the human body and the chain reactions taking place .. I'm not the neurologist who is measuring the decline in memory function based on it's starvation of cholesterol supply directly resulting from statin drug use. So this isn't about me at all. This is about the ability or lack thereof in processing new information, which seems to be very problematic for many people these days, you apparently being one such example. Emphasis mine.

This is name calling. I have no problem at all processing new information.

I show you a list of highly "credentialed" MD's and PhD's who are warning of the ill affects of these drugs and how do you respond? By claiming that they are motivated financially to advance natural medicine .. IGNORING the 20 Billion per year motive of the pharmaceutical companies that make the drugs??? This makes sense to you? This is reasonable?

Yet you ignore the 6 billion dollars per year motive of the supplement industry.

No, it does not make any sense at all. Not one iota. Taking these drugs because you feel you are a high risk for heart and stroke issues, while thoroughly ignoring the information that claims that Statin drugs actually harm instead of help, and may worsen or increase risks of heart attack and stroke is ..... MIND NUMBING. I'm sorry to tell you that this is a demonstration of a complete disconnect with rational thought processes ...

Let's see .... studies show that those with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer .... so in an effort to live longer, you want to lower yours?

This is the reason I take simvastatin:MRC/BHF Heart Protection Study of cholesterol lowe... [Lancet. 2002] - PubMed result . People who take it had lower all cause mortality. Oh, wait. The drug companies have gotten to the Brits, too, right?

And you don't think this brings into question your fundamental reasoning skills? Emphasis mine.

More name calling. My reasoning skills are fine, thank you.

And stop with the nonsense about name calling ... this isn't name calling .. this is simply pointing out when someone is saying something ridiculously backwards.

No, it is attempting to denigrate someone who disagrees with you. If you cannot refute the argument, attack the person making the argument.


THINK..
The difficulty with your argument is that if there is no pharma / medicine conspiracy it all falls apart. If every single person involved in mainstream medical research is not being paid off, it all falls apart. What do you think researchers do? Falsify data? Kill patients on purpose to make the numbers say what they want them to? There are far too many people involved --- many of whom would make a killing as whistleblowers and many who would love big juicy investigative reporting topics to win Pulitzer Prizes.

No, I do not buy your conspiracy theory. Yes, I believe many of your cholesterol skeptics are motiivated by financial gain.

And please do not question my ability to THINK!
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Old 09-21-2010, 10:40 AM
 
5,644 posts, read 13,179,064 times
Reputation: 14170
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
That is the most blatant load of manure I've ever seen ... heart disease has decreased by 50% ??? Heart disease IS NOT DECREASING ... it is INCREASING:

Heart Disease Deaths Increasing in Middle-Aged Adults - Carilion Clinic

BBC NEWS | Health | Heart disease 'on the increase'

Heart Disease Death Rates Going Up In Young US Women

Heart-disease rates increase for women / LJWorld.com

So that is the FIRST FALLACY THAT YOU CAN CONSIDER UTTERLY DISMISSED.

Now, I already provided you this link ... you called it a "hoot". You refused to even look at the information, but I WILL NOT LET YOU SPREAD YOUR PROPAGANDA unchallenged.

The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics

READ, LEARN, EDUCATE YOURSELF:

A heart medicine causing heart failure? Early 2002, a group of Australian cardiologists appealed in The American Journal of Cardiology for an independent study into this supposed, paradoxical ‘side effect’. Chronic heart failure, a disabling disease in which the heart muscle slowly but steadily loses its ability to pump, is becoming more and more common in the western world. So common, that it can not be explained by the increasing age of the population and the growing number of people surviving an acute heart problem, according to the authors of the article. They add that ‘observant doctors all over the world suspect a role for the generously prescribed statins’.

This suspicion is of course not falling out of the bright blue sky. “Statins make victims – a lot of victims – and by now it’s pretty clear how they do it,” is the bold comment of cardiologist Dr. Peter Langsjoen from Tyler, Texas, USA. Langsjoen gave up an attractive career in a university hospital to dedicate his competence to what he calls ‘statin induced congestive heart failure’. Langsjoen: “Statins block the enzyme HMG CoA-reductase.

This enzyme is responsible for the production of a substance called ‘mevalonate’. Mevalonate on its turn is the precursor of both cholesterol and co-enzyme Q10. This Q10 – also called ubiquinone because it is involved in myriads of physiological processes – is essential for the function of the mitochondria, the energy plants in our cells. Someone using statins, not only deprives the body from cholesterol, but also from a great deal of the Q10 normally being produced. The higher the statin dose, the less of both essential factors will be available to the body. The cells most depending on Q10 are those from the nerve system, the skeletal muscles, but particularly those from the heart muscle. Heart muscle cells literally stuff themselves with Q10. If they don´t get enough, they’ll say goodnight sooner or later. That’s the moment the patient presents with symptoms of heart failure. Older statin users will develop dangerously low levels within 6 to 12 months. For younger people it might take several years before problems manifest.”

What are those symptoms? Mainly extreme tiredness and muscle and joint pain, according to Langsjoen. Later on, shortness of breath may follow. “I see 2 to 3 new cases of statin induced heart failure per week in my practice. The first things I do are to measure their Q10 levels and improve them with a supplement. By the way, in Japan supplementing Q10 is a routine intervention in patients with congestive heart failure. The treatment is well documented.”

Last year Langsjoen published own research in which he observed that two thirds of elder statin users show signs of ‘diastolic dysfunction’, one of the first signs of heart failure, after only six months of therapy. ”Physicians are prescribing these drugs with reckless abandon. We’re talking about extremely tricky stuff.”

In the summer of 2001 a striking amount of people ‘suddenly’ died of rhabdomyolysis, a ‘rare but very serious side effect of statin use’. All these people were on Baycol/Lipobay (cerivastatin), a statin that Bayer introduced three years earlier. When an aggressive strategy of denial didn’t work, the company saw no other way out than to take the pill that was meant to be their flagship from the market.

Was Baycol/Lipobay so much more dangerous than her sisters from the competitors? “It was a very potent statin,” explains Langsjoen. “But Pfizers’ Lipitor is only a little bit less potent and is thus only killing a little fewer people. A statin is a statin.” After the Baycol/Lipobay incident a group of scientists, lead by the Italian biochemist Gian Paolo Littarru, send a petition to the FDA and to the health authorities from the EU. From this petition: “It is possible that the reported statin related deaths are the top of an iceberg. (….) The extent of the observed statin induced Q10 deprivation should not be underestimated. There are indications that we doctors, with the best intentions, are creating a life-threatening situation in million of healthy patients. Conclusive research shows that supplementing this humble molecule could prevent tremendous suffering and cost.

=================================

Now this is the unvarnished ... un-paid-for-by-pharmaceutical-corporate-killers TRUTH!

They are reaping 20 Billion in revenues for statin drugs ... and these drugs are "slow kill" drugs which are contributing to INCREASED HEART DISEASE, and a double-dip revenue stream in treating this statin induced heart disease perpetrated on the public under the guise of preventive health.

This is being done PURPOSELY, and with full knowledge of it's negative affects on health by insiders within the pharmaceutical industry and the FDA.

Whether or not the average medical doctor is aware of these facts is unclear, due to the fact that they follow the guidelines established by the AMA and the prominent medical journals and the FDA. If they don't, they subject themselves to a great number of "professional problems", while going along with the status quo is far less trouble and far more lucrative.

So, I suspect many of them are just negligently ignorant, while some others know but choose not to make waves or cause themselves hardships for going "against the grain".

The reality is, this is only the TIP OF THE ICEBERG ... and statin drugs are just one of many weapons being used to destroy the public health, which includes a plethora of other drugs ... fluoride in the water ... chemicals in the food ... and CANCER VIRUSES IN THE VACCINES (and I dare you to ask for documentation of this fact ... I DARE YOU!!! )

All of this is coincidently under the watchful and obedient eyes of the Food and Drug Administration.

Conspiracy Theory ? No .... CONSPIRACY FACT. And it's a very big, very deadly business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
My credentials? Oh, 148 IQ, and an insatiable appetite for information ... coupled with being old enough to have experiential knowledge of many of the issues I choose to discuss and help others better understand, which is based on that experience and years of in depth study, often amounting to a decade or more.

And one of the subjects for which I have studied most strenuously, and for the greatest length of time is health, and particularly heart, since my father and two out of three of his brothers all died before the age of 45 due to heart ailments.

But by posing that very question, you highlight one of the main issues here .... you see, this isn't about my credentials. That doesn't mean a thing ... I'm not performing these studies ... I'm not witnessing 2 and 3 fold increases in heart ailments in my patients who take statin drugs ... I'm not the molecular biologist who traces the affects of these drugs on the enzymatic activity within the human body and the chain reactions taking place .. I'm not the neurologist who is measuring the decline in memory function based on it's starvation of cholesterol supply directly resulting from statin drug use. So this isn't about me at all. This is about the ability or lack thereof in processing new information, which seems to be very problematic for many people these days, you apparently being one such example.

I show you a list of highly "credentialed" MD's and PhD's who are warning of the ill affects of these drugs and how do you respond? By claiming that they are motivated financially to advance natural medicine .. IGNORING the 20 Billion per year motive of the pharmaceutical companies that make the drugs??? This makes sense to you? This is reasonable?

No, it does not make any sense at all. Not one iota. Taking these drugs because you feel you are a high risk for heart and stroke issues, while thoroughly ignoring the information that claims that Statin drugs actually harm instead of help, and may worsen or increase risks of heart attack and stroke is ..... MIND NUMBING. I'm sorry to tell you that this is a demonstration of a complete disconnect with rational thought processes ...

Let's see .... studies show that those with higher cholesterol levels actually live longer .... so in an effort to live longer, you want to lower yours? And you don't think this brings into question your fundamental reasoning skills?

And stop with the nonsense about name calling ... this isn't name calling .. this is simply pointing out when someone is saying something ridiculously backwards.

THINK..
I think we have seen enough of your fundamental reasoning skills to see they are severely lacking...

Keep posting the nonsense.....laughing is good for the heart too and I do get more than a little chuckle reading your nonsensical rants...

I love the disconnect from reality in regards to high cholesterol levels and decreased mortality.....keep reading those blogs!

JAMA -- Abstract: Relationship of Baseline Serum Cholesterol Levels in 3 Large Cohorts of Younger Men to Long-term Coronary, Cardiovascular, and All-Cause Mortality and to Longevity, July 19, 2000, Stamler et al. 284 (3): 311

JAMA -- Abstract: Cholesterol and Mortality: 30 Years of Follow-up From the Framingham Study, April 24, 1987, Anderson et al. 257 (16): 2176

"The risk of mortality from coronary heart disease for persons with serum total cholesterol levels more than or equal to 6.72 mmol/l (260 mg/dl) was significantly higher than those with levels less than 4.14 mmol/l (160 mg/dl)."

ScienceDirect - Atherosclerosis : Serum total cholesterol levels and risk of mortality from stroke and coronary heart disease in Japanese: The JACC study

"There is really no doubt that the serum total cholesterol
is related to the rate of development of clinical
CHD both within and among populations. The association
is dose-related, occurs for both sexes, precedes the
disease, is independent of other risk factors, and can be
demonstrated for all clinical manifestations of CHD
with great consistency in diverse population samples all
over the world."

ScienceDirect - The Lancet : IS THE SERUM TOTAL CHOLESTEROL AN ANACHRONISM?


Those pesky facts keep getting in the way of your worldview don't they???

The authors and reviewers of these studies probably don't have a 148 IQ though nor do they likely scour the internet for blogs and promotional sites that ascribe to their views....
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Old 09-21-2010, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,969 posts, read 40,935,301 times
Reputation: 44899
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedevilz View Post
I think we have seen enough of your fundamental reasoning skills to see they are severely lacking...

Keep posting the nonsense.....laughing is good for the heart too and I do get more than a little chuckle reading your nonsensical rants...

I love the disconnect from reality in regards to high cholesterol levels and decreased mortality.....keep reading those blogs!

JAMA -- Abstract: Relationship of Baseline Serum Cholesterol Levels in 3 Large Cohorts of Younger Men to Long-term Coronary, Cardiovascular, and All-Cause Mortality and to Longevity, July 19, 2000, Stamler et al. 284 (3): 311

JAMA -- Abstract: Cholesterol and Mortality: 30 Years of Follow-up From the Framingham Study, April 24, 1987, Anderson et al. 257 (16): 2176

"The risk of mortality from coronary heart disease for persons with serum total cholesterol levels more than or equal to 6.72 mmol/l (260 mg/dl) was significantly higher than those with levels less than 4.14 mmol/l (160 mg/dl)."

ScienceDirect - Atherosclerosis : Serum total cholesterol levels and risk of mortality from stroke and coronary heart disease in Japanese: The JACC study

"There is really no doubt that the serum total cholesterol
is related to the rate of development of clinical
CHD both within and among populations. The association
is dose-related, occurs for both sexes, precedes the
disease, is independent of other risk factors, and can be
demonstrated for all clinical manifestations of CHD
with great consistency in diverse population samples all
over the world."

ScienceDirect - The Lancet : IS THE SERUM TOTAL CHOLESTEROL AN ANACHRONISM?


Those pesky facts keep getting in the way of your worldview don't they???

The authors and reviewers of these studies probably don't have a 148 IQ though nor do they likely scour the internet for blogs and promotional sites that ascribe to their views....

But Blue, all those studies were done by money-grubbing conspiracist researchers who have no interest in the truth, you know!
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