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Old 12-11-2009, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,027,829 times
Reputation: 7701

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Easybreezy View Post
Two relatively simple ways are to buy as much as you can directly from a local farmer. It might not be completely "organic", but on the other hand it won't be from those large factory farms.
I wouldn't be too sure about that.

In all my years of hauling produce, I've delivered mixed produce from California and other places into regional and local produce markets, such as Hunt's Point, NY, south Dallas, Atlanta or wherever. The delivery times were generally about 2 or 3AM and the place would be crawling with individual retailers driving pickup trucks. They'd buy the goods right off the truck, through the wholesaler's we delivered to, load it up and be back at their "farmers" produce stands before daylight. There, they'd unbox it, lay it out in enticing rows and sell it. The customer, being unaware of where it came from, would assume they are buying locally grown stuff when, in fact, they were buying exactly the same produce which we also hauled from the same producers to grocery warehouses. And, paying more for it.

I would also note that those so-called "factory farms" are most often owned by individual's or families and their farming techniques generally do not differ from the corporate farms, which aren't as common as you may think.

As an example, consider the Tanaka family. They farm over half a million acres in south Texas and Colorado, shifting from one place to another during the alternating growing seasons. Their produce is marked "Tanka Farms" and you'd think they were a small, family farm. In reality, they are a corporate entity which IS family owned, but they are hardly small farmers. They are a very large, privately owned "factory farm," but you'll never know that. I could list a dozen other examples such as A.A. Duda's and Son's out of Belle Glades, FL.

Don't be deceived. You may pay extra to avoid the so-called "factory farms," but you're not really getting what you pay for.
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Old 12-12-2009, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in northern Alabama
16,841 posts, read 51,286,023 times
Reputation: 27653
The article was cited in another forum a bit earlier. Here is my response, with some minor changes. PM me if you want the name and thread of the other forum.

Well THAT was a bunch of hooie.

Canned tomatoes. Had some today. Quite nice. I'm not fat, have no diabetes, no heart disease, and am past (voluntary) reproductive age. The less you eat, the more for me (and at a lower cost).

Corn fed beef - "We need to respect the fact that cows are herbivores, and that does not mean feeding them corn and chicken manure," says Salatin.

Last I checked, CORN WAS NOT AN ANIMAL. The chicken litter thing is old news, and around here farmers have rejected it because it makes the fetus grow too large in the cow, causing birthing problems.

Microwave popcorn. "Chemicals, including perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA), in the lining of the bag, are part of a class of compounds that may be linked to infertility in humans, according to a recent study from UCLA. In animal testing, the chemicals cause liver, testicular, and pancreatic cancer. Studies show that microwaving causes the chemicals to vaporize—and migrate into your popcorn."

Anything coming from California today that purports to be science is suspect. Let's just stop for a second and think. I mean REALLY THINK PEOPLE. When you microwave popcorn and it gets hot and pops in the bag, what happens??? The pressure of the moisture in the corn expands outward and bursts the pericap. Just HOW can chemicals migrate UPSTREAM of that pressure and into the popcorn??? Do they have little swimming fins like salmon? Are they jet propelled by radioactive nuclei in the bag? Maybe they can magically avoid the laws of physics on a quantum level and suddenly appear in the middle of a popped kernal??? Anything is possible in California "science."

Nonorganic Potatoes. "they're treated with fungicides during the growing season, then sprayed with herbicides to kill off the fibrous vines before harvesting. After they're dug up, the potatoes are treated yet again to prevent them from sprouting. "Try this experiment: Buy a conventional potato in a store, and try to get it to sprout. It won't," says Moyer..."

Absolute, pure, 100% BS. I have a bunch of "conventional" potatoes that are sprouting right now. They ALWAYS have had a problem with sprouting before I get to half the bag. This guy is LYING and hoping people will believe him. He should be brought up on charges for inciting idiotic panic. And, uh, fungicides on the leaves??? If you get a tiny bit of fungicide, do you know how to compare it to flagil or athlete foot creams? If you visit a public pool, you are likely exposed to greater levels of fungicide.

Farmed salmon. "You can only safely eat one of these salmon dinners every 5 months without increasing your risk of cancer," says Carpenter

R-i-g-h-t. And I suppose you think my mom was an idiot too? You won't find DDT in farmed salmon unless you stick it there yourself, and even if you did, DDT was a problem for birds, not humans. People used to demonstrate how harmless it was by eating spoonfuls of it.

Milk produced with artificial hormones. Although I agree that pumping cattle full of hormones is a bad idea (mostly for the cattle and the small farmers) this doesn't cut it: "There's not 100% proof that this is increasing cancer in humans," admits North. "However, it's banned in most industrialized countries." It is banned for other reasons.

Conventional Apples. Yada yada pesticide. Pesticide outside the apple, fruit on the inside. Can you say "wash?" Apple juice is a major sweetener in many "100% fruit" products. I'd be more concerned about that than an apple I can wash with my own two hands.

The article is a great article for pointing out junk science and guilt by innuendo. It has no more to do with reality than the wicked witch of the west.

My primary point in dissecting the article was to bring up the awareness level of readers, and point out that half-truths are becoming more and more blatant in the media.

Critical thinking skills are becoming more and more required to separate fact from fiction, and I hope to nurture those skills in others. If someone says something to me in conversation that I feel is incorrect or unfounded, I might let it pass or just do a gentle nudge to hopefully steer them towards a broader view, or I may double check to see if my own view is wrong. However, when something is placed into print by a group that purports to be an authority, and that item is a lie, I start to pull out the stops.

Why do I do this? Because I am seeing more and more evidence of people believing those lies and not making any effort to hold their sources of information to even minimal standards. I could work at trying to correct the thinking of every individual on a one-on-one basis, but as long as the lies and BS continue to be published, it is a losing battle.

Although I hate the idea of an interference with a "free" (read corporate or special interest group controlled) press, I am coming to the opinion that there must be fines for some of the more blatant published lies that purport to be science. Opinion is fine, politics is a free-for-all, but when it comes down to the stuff that we need to use as core "this is how the world works" information, lies mislead and can even kill people.

I have learned to not take what is written or pronounced at face value, and to do my own research or look deeper. I try, as best I can, to not promote rumor or quasi-science. I respect that others may have differing opinions, but when it comes down to core facts, I tend to be right more often than most folks.

If the study had included HFCS, I would have likely agreed with many of the points. I used to think it was no big deal, but the more I researched, the more concerned I became. I don't dissect for the joy of the debate, or any general hatred of ecology, and I find that reasoned articles are far more of a joy to me. It is just that, IME, many of the articles like the one under discussion make it to popular media because of their fear factor and anti-establishment writing, while failing miserably at getting anything right.

Edwards, a professor emeritus at San Jose State University in California, drank a spoonful of DDT in front of his entomology classes at the beginning of each school year, to make the point that DDT is not harmful to human beings. Now 83, and still fighting for the truth about DDT, Edwards is an avid mountain climber.

A different take on DDT and its effects:
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.co...umm02/DDT.html

A page by page refutation of the lies of Rachel Carson, whose book "Silent Spring" vaulted the ecology movement to the forefront:
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.co...02/Carson.html

Please read both with a skeptical mind and then do your own digging from a variety of sources. You may find you move your position a little.

Next, I'm going to seem to be backtracking, but I am not. Everyone has a different mix of genetic material, and the mix of bacteria in the gut varies wildly as well. I fully accept that some people tolerate certain foods or chemicals and/or pesticides less than others. Peanut allergies are real. I had and have issues with certain foods that are GRAS. Specifically, I abreact to guar gum, which has made it's way into a lot of processed food and even dairy products.

I am of the opinion that pure foods (not mixes and adulterated "enhanced" foods) are vital. I fully agree that a percentage of the food supply MUST be organic and pure, even if only for the individuals with specific problems.

What I don't see as reasonable is the automatic vilification of any and all chemicals, many of which occur naturally. I do however agree with the idea of being cautious, especially around kids. On a practical level, we can't ban all chemicals, nor would that be wise.

Addressing the idea of cancer and rare disease "clusters" - we are wired to look for cause and effect, and many (myself included) can see cause and effect in areas where it isn't actually the case, upon further inspection. There is a huge amount of change that has occurred since WWII. In all likelihood 95% or more of this change has not had any negative health effects. The frightening part is that we don't yet know which 5% is the part that does affect us badly. People have ideas, and strong suspicions, but the data to back a lot of those up isn't there yet.

That lack of proof makes articles like this that are intentionally putting forth falsehoods as fact all the more nasty and antisocial. Such articles serve to confuse and diffuse the energy of those who are seeking truth. Those articles can be as costly and debilitating as any terrorism, because they can become inculcated in the collective conscious of the general population.

Is caution needed when dealing with foods? Of course. Do lying articles that incite general fear and stress help? No.
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Old 12-13-2009, 03:53 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,794,911 times
Reputation: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
But...you have to get your seeds from somewhere.

Read up on the process of mutagenesis.
I'm not quite sure why you are bringing this into the discussion
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Old 12-13-2009, 05:04 AM
 
3,627 posts, read 12,400,342 times
Reputation: 2682
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkate View Post
Yep...except for a few small exceptions this food is only for the rich....look at these prices per pound on grass fed beef..I can't afford them:
But if you put it in perspective of what it would cost to eat it out AND beef spends a very limited amount of time on your plate............then it is not that expensive.
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Old 12-15-2009, 12:50 PM
 
985 posts, read 2,300,348 times
Reputation: 722
I think I'll just take my chances, if I worried about every single thing I ate I'd probably die early from stress anyways.
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Old 12-15-2009, 05:10 PM
 
13,140 posts, read 35,968,549 times
Reputation: 12074
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
The 7 foods experts won't eat and their reasons

I originally thought about putting this in the Green Living sub-forum, but as we all know, discussions there do nothing more than turn into some stupid Left-wing verses Right-wing debate and this has nothing to do with anyone's politically failed worldview. Share your thoughts on this article, then I'll share some things I know about these subjects and what I find true about the articles observations.

health/the-7-foods-experts-wont-eat
I wouldn't eat any of that crap either as it's a Hunter Gatherer diet for me .
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Old 12-15-2009, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Northern NH
4,551 posts, read 9,859,296 times
Reputation: 3782
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Of course we're a lost cause from the day we're born. Ever know of someone who didn't die?

As for oganic? Yes, I've noticed the rise in products LABELED as organic (and typically for a much higher price), but that doesn't tell you much. There are no uniform standards for such labeling. It may not be what you consider organic, so just be aware that what you're purchasing may not be what you think you're purchasing.

And, if you buy locally produced produce, just remember that you're still likely buying Frankenfood's grown from genetically altered seeds. If the seed is tainted, so is the produce no matter where it's grown.

Grass fed beef: Sounds like a wonderful idea, but have you spent much time around hayfields or ranches and farms who allow their cows to free range? It's not uncommon to see them out there spreading fertilizer on the grass, so you're not avoiding chemical residue anyhow, even when you pay more for the "grass fed" label. They also plant the kind of grass they want the cow to eat (also from genetically altered seeds) and spray herbicides to keep out the grasses they don't want the cows to eat.

Oh, and did you notice the "expert" that article quoted on the subject of grass-fed beef? Joel Salatin, co-owner of Polyface Farms. Not surprisingly, Polyface Farms is, by their own definition, "beyond organic." Check out their website: Polyface, Inc. Hmmmm. Does the fact that Joe is in the grass fed beef business have any bearing on his trash talking of other producers? You decide.

One more thing: I spent more than 30 years as a long distance truck driver and have loaded potatoes at just about every farm in the San Luis Valley of Colorado, and a good many more in Idaho, California and Washington. Hundreds of loads of potatoes loaded right at the farm. Guess what? I can't recall EVER seeing a patch of private potatoes growing over there by the farmers house. I HAVE seen the farmer or his wife come out to the storage bin and carry a bucket or basket of potatoes back to the house.

But, if you're really concerned about such things, may I suggest you avoid Lay's brand potato chips altogether? Lay's develops their own seeds in their own genetic laboratories and ships them under guard to their producers. They dictate what chemicals can, or cannot, be used on their spuds. Those genetically modified seeds are only good for about 4 or 5 generations, then they become so unstable that a new batch has to be produced. They begin to rot very, very quickly, so much so that it's difficult to deliver that last generation from Colorado to Dallas before they turn to mush and that's only 800 miles.

You're fooling yourself if you think you can avoid all this stuff. Worse, you're being conned into paying more for just about the same thing.
I'm sure you see the cows smoking as well As far as Lays potato chips it is simple just don't eat potato chips who needs those things?
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Old 12-15-2009, 08:53 PM
 
2 posts, read 3,021 times
Reputation: 10
Thanks, anyway i learned much here.
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Old 12-15-2009, 10:04 PM
 
Location: 38°14′45″N 122°37′53″W
4,152 posts, read 9,578,000 times
Reputation: 3398
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit View Post
Of course we're a lost cause from the day we're born. Ever know of someone who didn't die?

As for oganic? Yes, I've noticed the rise in products LABELED as organic (and typically for a much higher price), but that doesn't tell you much. There are no uniform standards for such labeling. It may not be what you consider organic, so just be aware that what you're purchasing may not be what you think you're purchasing.

And, if you buy locally produced produce, just remember that you're still likely buying Frankenfood's grown from genetically altered seeds. If the seed is tainted, so is the produce no matter where it's grown.

Grass fed beef: Sounds like a wonderful idea, but have you spent much time around hayfields or ranches and farms who allow their cows to free range? It's not uncommon to see them out there spreading fertilizer on the grass, so you're not avoiding chemical residue anyhow, even when you pay more for the "grass fed" label. They also plant the kind of grass they want the cow to eat (also from genetically altered seeds) and spray herbicides to keep out the grasses they don't want the cows to eat.

Oh, and did you notice the "expert" that article quoted on the subject of grass-fed beef? Joel Salatin, co-owner of Polyface Farms. Not surprisingly, Polyface Farms is, by their own definition, "beyond organic." Check out their website: Polyface, Inc. Hmmmm. Does the fact that Joe is in the grass fed beef business have any bearing on his trash talking of other producers? You decide.

One more thing: I spent more than 30 years as a long distance truck driver and have loaded potatoes at just about every farm in the San Luis Valley of Colorado, and a good many more in Idaho, California and Washington. Hundreds of loads of potatoes loaded right at the farm. Guess what? I can't recall EVER seeing a patch of private potatoes growing over there by the farmers house. I HAVE seen the farmer or his wife come out to the storage bin and carry a bucket or basket of potatoes back to the house.

But, if you're really concerned about such things, may I suggest you avoid Lay's brand potato chips altogether? Lay's develops their own seeds in their own genetic laboratories and ships them under guard to their producers. They dictate what chemicals can, or cannot, be used on their spuds. Those genetically modified seeds are only good for about 4 or 5 generations, then they become so unstable that a new batch has to be produced. They begin to rot very, very quickly, so much so that it's difficult to deliver that last generation from Colorado to Dallas before they turn to mush and that's only 800 miles.

You're fooling yourself if you think you can avoid all this stuff. Worse, you're being conned into paying more for just about the same thing.
And that may be the case for you and most others. Luckily, I live in the "promised land" of organic farming (Marin/Sonoma County, Ca.).

I do know my producers and farmers, really, my good friend runs the farmer's markets here in town. I hang with all of them and have learned alot over the past 5 years.
True, there is no nationwide standard, and the USDA Organic stamp is one that I totally avoid since it's more BS than not....See this list for the scary stuff:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getf...cct=nopgeninfo

Oregon Tilth, QAI and CCOF USA grown only are my personal preferences, if I pick up something from the local independent grocery store.
Did I not mention that I avoid regular grocery stores and go straight to farmers and ranchers in my area?
I would never and haven't in at least 10 years bought potato chips of any kind.
That's like thinking that it's actually food?!!
Dear lordy, my point is, i am not the only person around here who is like this, and the movement is growing every year to buy local. The best way to insure that the business practices that what you agree with is to get to know the farmers, which I have done.

Bottom line is, it is a free country and people can choose wether or not they'd like to be a part of the solution and not just a part of the problem.

Another trend around here:

http://4thandcswap.blogspot.com/


Just keep in mind, that as a consumer, you wage more power than you think.

Last edited by bellalunatic; 12-15-2009 at 10:19 PM..
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Old 12-16-2009, 03:02 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,078 posts, read 17,027,829 times
Reputation: 7701
Quote:
Originally Posted by bellalunatic View Post
And that may be the case for you and most others. Luckily, I live in the "promised land" of organic farming (Marin/Sonoma County, Ca.).

I do know my producers and farmers, really, my good friend runs the farmer's markets here in town. I hang with all of them and have learned alot over the past 5 years.
True, there is no nationwide standard, and the USDA Organic stamp is one that I totally avoid since it's more BS than not....See this list for the scary stuff:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getf...cct=nopgeninfo

Oregon Tilth, QAI and CCOF USA grown only are my personal preferences, if I pick up something from the local independent grocery store.
Did I not mention that I avoid regular grocery stores and go straight to farmers and ranchers in my area?
I would never and haven't in at least 10 years bought potato chips of any kind.
That's like thinking that it's actually food?!!
Dear lordy, my point is, i am not the only person around here who is like this, and the movement is growing every year to buy local. The best way to insure that the business practices that what you agree with is to get to know the farmers, which I have done.

Bottom line is, it is a free country and people can choose wether or not they'd like to be a part of the solution and not just a part of the problem.

Another trend around here:

Petaluma's 4th and C Street Garden Produce Swap


Just keep in mind, that as a consumer, you wage more power than you think.

Yes, but not everyone has the time or is in the right location to get to know their producers.

In any case, what's the point of worrying about such things? We're all going to die from something, so what difference does it make how?
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