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Old 06-17-2010, 03:30 AM
 
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wow what good does this argument serve? it was over 150 years ago? whether it was rape or consensual its over and no one alive committed the crime or the deed.......
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:53 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itshim View Post
I think that the problem with this explanation is that you are thinking in the context of a post civil rights, not for the color of my skin type mentality. It's pretty easy to believe that AFTER someone like Frederick Douglass, AFTER Rosa parks, AFTER mlk and Malcolm X, AFTER the civil rights act of 64', intergration, and AFTER the riots, affirmative action, all the books, narratives and black studies projects and classes and Bill Cosby tv shows. Prior to that, the congeniality of relationships between slaves, laborers, factory workers or whatever weren't always thought of in the context of "right" or "wrong" between either party, and I surmise that many of the slaves knew nothing other than the lifestyle that they were born into. It's unfortunate, but that is the reality of it. The relationships weren't linear across the board; while some slaves were treated horridly, others were not. Some slave owners actually "married" (or however you want to identify those relationships) with their slaves because those were the only women available to them. Some slaves were actually paid, and some slaves were actually hired out to work for others but allowed to keep their earnings.
One of the problems when looking at history is we often intentionally or unintentially apply the standards we are used to. We don't see it from the eyes of the time. I seek out letters and journals when I research something because it shows how people felt about things at the time. Today we can say it was all rape or there was never any legitimate consent but that would not apply if we look at the thought mode of the time.

People come wired differently. Some slaves undoubtedly fought it from the time they could. Some aquesed to the instution and never did. And I'm sure most were somewhere inbetween, finding ways to survive.

Even in bad situations, most people will grow used to them and keep suffering through them over running to something different and unfamiliar. Sometimes the most terrifying thing is the unfamiliar and unknown. I'm sure many stayed because things were bad but not bad enough to take the risk. Slaves had value to owners and while some were terrible to them, most were somewhere in the middle. Not the best life, but not a horrible one either.

And remember at that time married women were obliged to accept sexual relations with their husbands period. A wife of any color could not say "no". A man could beat his wife and children and as long as he didn't kill them it wasn't considered wrong. So men dominating women's lives and employing violence was not limited to black slave women.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:04 AM
 
Location: Ohio
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I have read a lot of history books because it I am interested in our past.
From what I have read there were compassionate owners who would not buy or sell a slave if it broke up a family.
Then there were the ones who had no feelings for any black person and didn't care about anything but control and production and used brutality to achieve that.
But to get to the point I would think that a male and female could become attracted to each other, no matter what the color or circumstances.
And from what I've read it was more the white field bosses and even black field bosses that did most of the raping.
It is a fact that some white owners did rape female slaves. I believe it is also very possible that a white owner and black female slave could have had consensual sex. Sometimes nature and feelings takes its course between a man and woman of any color.
Titles and social standings were forgotten in those encounters.
Slavery was an abomination imo. But I think it's very possible for a white man and a black woman to enjoy what maybe both wanted from each other with no strings attached and for a moment not think about who owned who.
For those intimate times there was no owner or slave. It was just two people being together.
I think that is very possible. Rare maybe, but not inconceivable.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:17 PM
 
410 posts, read 1,104,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post
One of the problems when looking at history is we often intentionally or unintentially apply the standards we are used to. We don't see it from the eyes of the time. I seek out letters and journals when I research something because it shows how people felt about things at the time. Today we can say it was all rape or there was never any legitimate consent but that would not apply if we look at the thought mode of the time.

People come wired differently. Some slaves undoubtedly fought it from the time they could. Some aquesed to the instution and never did. And I'm sure most were somewhere inbetween, finding ways to survive.

Even in bad situations, most people will grow used to them and keep suffering through them over running to something different and unfamiliar. Sometimes the most terrifying thing is the unfamiliar and unknown. I'm sure many stayed because things were bad but not bad enough to take the risk. Slaves had value to owners and while some were terrible to them, most were somewhere in the middle. Not the best life, but not a horrible one either.

And remember at that time married women were obliged to accept sexual relations with their husbands period. A wife of any color could not say "no". A man could beat his wife and children and as long as he didn't kill them it wasn't considered wrong. So men dominating women's lives and employing violence was not limited to black slave women.
Thanks Nightbird, you beat me to it. In reading through this thread, this was my predominant thought, that so often people today apply present day morals, norms, ethics, etc., when attempting to understand problems of previous eras.

I agree with Nightbird--relationships between owners and the owned spanned from the horribly, cruelly enslaved to those who really didn't even know that they were enslaved and lived better lives than many whites. And most were somewhere in between.

The best sources for information are the hundreds of slave narratives left in the 1930's and 40's by those who actually lived it, something that strangely I did not find mentioned here. There are various volumes and they are easily obtainable.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:42 AM
 
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Originally Posted by smel View Post
I know if I had been a slave I would have tried repeatedly to escape until I was killed or made it. There is no way I would have lived under someone else's control.
You don't know any such thing.What you think you might have done is based on your experience in modern society not the one in which you would have realized life were you a slave.It's just silly to judge the actions,or inaction, of people from the distant past by contemporary ideals.
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Old 07-07-2010, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Rome, Georgia
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Maybe white people and black people should exclusively procreate with other races so that in another couple of generations we won't have to discuss it anymore.
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Old 07-07-2010, 03:21 AM
 
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I was a slave to my wife and I had sex with her without being forced......well sometimes I wasnt
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Old 07-07-2010, 05:21 AM
 
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The Valentine Museum in Richmond has done a lot of research into the relationships between slaves and their owners. People interested in the facts should become familiar with the resources of the museum for the facts. The information is surprising and not what one might expect from a Richmond institution.
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Old 07-07-2010, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Native Floridian, USA
5,297 posts, read 7,596,342 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oerdin View Post
Early slave owners and slaves actually lived in the same house, ate at the same table, and were basically treated like indentured servants. It wasn't until the 18th century that the plantation system became large enough and society developed enough to truly stratify things and become ever more abusive.
I have read and studied slavery extensively and this is the truth.

Some of my ancestors owned slaves and I do not know if they were "good" to them or not. There was no goodness in owning another person but, there were blacks in Richmond, Virginia who owned slaves and in parts of Africa today, people have endured generations of slavery (see article in either the Smithsonian magazine or the Nat Geo mag). My point being, it happens and it is wrong. But, I will not be responsible for someone's bad luck today or lack of success because of what some of my ancestors did.

A good portion of the slaves that were repatirated back to Liberia (?) later requested to return to the USA.

The earlier slave society was more benevolent, particularly in the older slave states and I recently was reading the 3 volume "The Children of Pride" and it is the letters of a family in SC before, during and after the Civil War. If you read the condensed version, you get a completely different picture than when reading the full history. The condensed version should be banned.

the same can be said about the Mary Chesnut diaries. The edited versions give a very different picture than what was actually written, good and bad. I have read all 3 versions.

I do believe that slavery just before the war had become too opressive and cruel and I am glad it was abolished.

Dont know exactly where i was going with all of this, just putting in my 2 cents..... I am very well read on the subject but not very articulate.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:05 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,193,158 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkinsawjoe View Post
You don't know any such thing.What you think you might have done is based on your experience in modern society not the one in which you would have realized life were you a slave.It's just silly to judge the actions,or inaction, of people from the distant past by contemporary ideals.
Absolutely. At the same time millions of women put up with abusive husbands who drank out their misery and took it out on their wives. Did they run away? No. No most. Because it was the way it was.

Never say those words "If it was me" until you've been there. If there is someplace other than your own experience you just don't know. This even applies to things happening now. The truth is we can't ever say for sure until we have had a chance to find out.

And before we get all pristine over other times excesses, remember that in terms of human misery and torment, more people suffered and died and were killed in wars and from the deprivation thereof or the paranoia of in the 20th century than combined human history. We took destruction to a new heights. And we can't say "It was them" since dropping a bomb on a city, is dropping a bom on a city. The suffering is the same be it in Japan, London, Moscow, Viet Nam or Berlin. If you look at the cold hard facts of OUR history, I think we'll be surprised at the judgement of future generations. I don't think we'll like it too much.
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