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Old 07-06-2011, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
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Cleopatra was the Grandaughter of Ptolemies a Greek General who took over Egypt when Alexander the great died. That was why one of the languages on the Rosetta Stone was Greek, because the Royal Family was Greek

 
Old 07-07-2011, 01:22 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
An update.

Sauda/Zauda (feminine equivalent of aswad, Arabic for black), was also the name for one of the Masmuda Berber tribes of southern Morocco.

Now it was common, in medieval Arabic writings, to call the peoples around southern Morocco and the western Saharan region south of it, Habasha (see p. 16, 31 & 327 in particular).

In fact one of the modern Berber confederations, the Ait Atta, have a segment called the Ait Khabbash/Beni Abbes.

Thus if the "Arabs" of Cyrenica and Egypt claim descent from woman called Sa'ad (a very Berber rather than Islamic Arab characteristic in having a female progenitor), it looks as if they're of Masmuda Berber origins, probably from the time when the Almohads came to power and ruled all of the Barbary coast with some migrating to Tunisia and Tripoli.

There seems to be much fluidity in ethno-linguistic identities.
Have to make another correction here.

Regarding the Ait Khabbash/Beni Abbes, they seem to have tribal segments from the Moroccan edge of the Sahara, to the mountains of the Sanhaja Kabyles, all the way to the Nile. It appears they have really got around at least since the time of the Fatimids. See Section 12 of my Libya thread.

2ndly although I have not come across much info backing my previous assertion that the Sa'ad tribes of Cyrenica are of Masmuda origin, these tribes are largely of Amazigh origin. Evans-Pritchard claimed that they were descendants of the Banu Sulaym Arab tribes but he conceded this is NOT what the tribes themselves claimed and Peters likewise stated the Sa'ad only claimed descent from a female ancestress by the name of Sa'ad. Again this is covered in Section 12.

There was a group of the Lawata/Leuta/Lebuta (the descendants of the Libu from Ramesid times and the origin of the Hellene use of Libya) Amazigh, that went by the name of Sa'id and they were active between the Nile and Cyrenica.
 
Old 07-10-2011, 10:16 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,583 posts, read 11,769,669 times
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A lot of people do not know what "Cleopatra" means.

It is a Greek word, it means "the glory of her father."

The first Cleopatra of the Ptolemaic dynasty was Cleopatra I, the daughter of Antiochus III The Great of the Seluecid Empire (Syria). This Cleopatra was nicknamed "The Syrian."

The famous Cleopatra, the lady who was the celebrated lover of Caesar and Antony and the subject of so many legends, was Cleopatra VII. Her full name was Cleopatra Thea Philopator, which roughly means "Cleopatra the Goddess (or Divine Lady) Who Loves Her Father."

I still maintain the very best biography of her was the one written by Michael Grant back in the 1970s.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 02:01 PM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,454,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
A lot of people do not know what "Cleopatra" means.

It is a Greek word, it means "the glory of her father."

The first Cleopatra of the Ptolemaic dynasty was Cleopatra I, the daughter of Antiochus III The Great of the Seluecid Empire (Syria). This Cleopatra was nicknamed "The Syrian."

The famous Cleopatra, the lady who was the celebrated lover of Caesar and Antony and the subject of so many legends, was Cleopatra VII. Her full name was Cleopatra Thea Philopator, which roughly means "Cleopatra the Goddess (or Divine Lady) Who Loves Her Father."

I still maintain the very best biography of her was the one written by Michael Grant back in the 1970s.
Thanks for the info Clark. The Grant book seems to have been updated since the 70s and it appears to have good reviews on Amazon.

There is one article I've been searching for a good while, if you happen to come across somehow, I would be much obliged if let me know where.

Quote:
Also I have been looking the longest for The Legacy of the Andalusian Berbers in the 14th century Maghreb by Maya Schatzmiller.

If anyone could help me out locating it, I'd appreciate it.
 
Old 07-12-2011, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Southwest Michigan/Miami Beach Miami
1,834 posts, read 2,629,872 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
[IMG][/IMG]

LMAO!
 
Old 07-14-2011, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Somewhere in the universe
2,161 posts, read 3,872,771 times
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We cannot base our modern, American views of race on an ancient civilization. "Black" to us may not mean anything to the people back then. They might have distinguished themselves quite differently. Following the logic mentioned before, Cleopatra could have been "black" by American standards, but that does not mean she was not mixed. She could have had red hair and green eyes and still considered "black" to us. She could have been considered a completely mixed person in our modern times. Who knows?

The Egyptians were a very mixed civilization. Some with very dark complexion, some with very fair complexion. Their equivalent of our racial structure might be(and probably was) completely different.
 
Old 07-15-2011, 08:09 PM
 
605 posts, read 1,179,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovely95 View Post
We cannot base our modern, American views of race on an ancient civilization. "Black" to us may not mean anything to the people back then. They might have distinguished themselves quite differently. Following the logic mentioned before, Cleopatra could have been "black" by American standards, but that does not mean she was not mixed. She could have had red hair and green eyes and still considered "black" to us. She could have been considered a completely mixed person in our modern times. Who knows?

The Egyptians were a very mixed civilization. Some with very dark complexion, some with very fair complexion. Their equivalent of our racial structure might be(and probably was) completely different.
You hit the nail on the head. We shouldn't try and place our Euro Centric American view on ancient culture. She was not black, and she was not "white". Not to mention the near east is a very dazzling mix of cultures.
 
Old 07-17-2011, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,774,500 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lovely95 View Post
We cannot base our modern, American views of race on an ancient civilization. "Black" to us may not mean anything to the people back then. They might have distinguished themselves quite differently. Following the logic mentioned before, Cleopatra could have been "black" by American standards, but that does not mean she was not mixed. She could have had red hair and green eyes and still considered "black" to us. She could have been considered a completely mixed person in our modern times. Who knows?

The Egyptians were a very mixed civilization. Some with very dark complexion, some with very fair complexion. Their equivalent of our racial structure might be(and probably was) completely different.
Unfortunately Afrocentrists tried to co-opt Cleopatra as some black queen and here were are today discussing this nonsense. She very well may have had some sub-Saharan African ancestry who knows but she considered herself Greek. She was the first in her family to even speak Egyptian.
 
Old 07-18-2011, 10:38 AM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,315,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Well, genetically speaking modern Egyptians are largely (in one of those source on the previous pages it said 90%) the same as ancient ones, and go to Cairo today and look around you, by and large people there don't look like people from Somalia or Ethiopia etc.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if they had been black, women from the horn of Africa are quite cute actually But this is merely about history and science, not about racism as some suggest.
The people in Cairo seem to be Arabs. They are not related to the people who built the pyramids. The poorer people on the outskirts look different. The most "Egyptian" looking person I saw in Cairo was the little woman with the huge eyes and reddish brown skin who was mopping the floor at the airport. I think the descendants of the ancient Egyptians have for the most part been displaced in modern Egypt. It would be like looking for American Indians in New York City.
 
Old 07-18-2011, 10:47 AM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,315,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneTraveler View Post
How do you know she isn't biracial? Most black Americans have white in them. In fact, genetic studies indicate that self describing black Americans are about 10-25% white, depending on the location of the sampled population.
I think she meant that her parentage isn't immediately bi-racial, that she does not have one Black parent and one White parent. The point being how much the Black descendants of American slaves have changed over the years from what they looked like when they arrived in America.
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