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Old 07-18-2011, 08:30 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,583 posts, read 11,766,291 times
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The Roman historians of her day considered Cleopatra Thea Philopator a Greek.

 
Old 07-18-2011, 08:42 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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Default "The Death Of Cleopatra" by Guido Cagnacci

Guido Cagnacci (1601 - 1663), a Baroque-period Italian painter, painted this famous picture of Cleopatra. Cagnacci was a contemporary of Rembrandt and enjoyed royal patronage in Vienna, where he died.

 
Old 07-18-2011, 09:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laysayfair View Post
The people in Cairo seem to be Arabs. They are not related to the people who built the pyramids. The poorer people on the outskirts look different. The most "Egyptian" looking person I saw in Cairo was the little woman with the huge eyes and reddish brown skin who was mopping the floor at the airport. I think the descendants of the ancient Egyptians have for the most part been displaced in modern Egypt. It would be like looking for American Indians in New York City.

How would you know? If Arabs did not build the pyramids then who did? I think you are way off base. Most Egyptians have a swarthy complexion to olive skin. I am not a defender of modern Islamic society. But the reality is that many of the near eastern civilizations like the Egyptians, Persians, and Babylonians were the forefathers of modern mathematics. They had very advanced civilizations, and birthed the three great religions of the modern world. I wouldn't be so quick to discount the cultural contributions of these early civilizations.

Sorry but red hair is not very common in Egypt, nor is it very common in Greece. The vast majority of Greeks have naturally black hair. I think you are living in a dream world.

I've stated this before, but most people living in the near eastern countries are a mix of many different ethnic groups. Its a natural cross roads between Africa, Asia, and Europe.
 
Old 07-18-2011, 10:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
How would you know? If Arabs did not build the pyramids then who did? I think you are way off base. Most Egyptians have a swarthy complexion to olive skin. I am not a defender of modern Islamic society. But the reality is that many of the near eastern civilizations like the Egyptians, Persians, and Babylonians were the forefathers of modern mathematics. They had very advanced civilizations, and birthed the three great religions of the modern world. I wouldn't be so quick to discount the cultural contributions of these early civilizations.

Sorry but red hair is not very common in Egypt, nor is it very common in Greece. The vast majority of Greeks have naturally black hair. I think you are living in a dream world.

I've stated this before, but most people living in the near eastern countries are a mix of many different ethnic groups. Its a natural cross roads between Africa, Asia, and Europe.
Ummm. Red hair? Discounting cultural contributions of these early civilizations? The Greeks? Do you have the right post?
 
Old 07-18-2011, 11:04 PM
 
605 posts, read 1,178,877 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laysayfair View Post
Ummm. Red hair? Discounting cultural contributions of these early civilizations? The Greeks? Do you have the right post?
Yes you stated that the most "Egyptian" looking person you saw in Egypt was a red head. Which is pure foolishness. That is like saying the most Swedish looking person has black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin. Red hair is not very common in the near east. Even modern day Greeks have rather dark hair, and the frequency of lighter hair is pretty uncommon (except for all the Greek women who dye their hair blonde).

You do find red heads in Persia, and India, Iraq, and even Egypt but its still very rare. Furthermore you stated that the ancient Egyptians were displaced by Arabs. Sorry but there is not very much genetic or historical evidence to back up your claim. Claiming ancient Egyptians had red hair, is just as silly as claiming that ancient Egyptians were completely black.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 08:05 AM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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My theory about why there is so much conversation about Cleopatra is because, quite frankly, everybody wants to claim her!!!

"Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale
Her infinate variety. Other women cloy
The appetites they feed, but she makes hungry
Where most she satisfies."

William Shakespeare "Antony And Cleopatra" Act 2, scene 2

Cleopatra was the most famous woman of all classical antiquity, and one of the most famous women in the history of the world. She has been subject to biographies, poems, plays, paintings, sculpture, movies, songs, operas, even slot machines.

The real Cleopatra was not some kind of pretty sex kitten who managed to ensnare Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. The real Cleopatra was an incredibly shrewd, brilliant, intellectual, ambitious, accomplished politician who spoke at the very least 9 languages fluently, the author of books and treatises, a student of mathematics, astronomy, philosophy, literature, and religion. She was probably not beautiful, but not unattractive either ... we do have a general idea of what she looked like because there are surviving marble bust portraits of her and the rather crude coin depictions of her. Most contemporary historians of her day describe her allure as not so much her face but her elegance, charm, regal poise, and majestic bearing. Everyone seems to agree that her voice was absolutely beautiful and when she spoke it sounded like listening to a perfectly tuned string instrument. A couple of Roman historians do claim she was physically beautiful ... the historian Cassius Dio was one.

Cleo was also a driven and ruthless politician, you might even say bloodthirsty.

The family of Cleopatra was called "The Lagids" and they were from Macedonia, in the mountains of northern Greece. They were related to the Macedonian royal family and the first Ptolemy was Alexander the Great's first cousin ... and possibly his half brother. The males of the Lagid line took the name "Ptolemy" but were known by more informal nicknames, Cleo's Dad for instance was known as "Auletes" which means "The Flute Player" or "The Piper" ... he was sometimes called "The Bastard."

A recent biography of Cleopatra by Professor Duane W. Roller, the head of the Greek and Latin Depts. at Ohio State University suggests that there might have been a trace of African blood in Cleopatra, through her mother's line.

More importantly, if we were to go back 12,000 ... 15,000 ... even 20,000 years before Cleopatra herself we can discover that DNA evidence of various haplotypes. I believe Cleo herself had DNA haplotypes of both R1b (typical of Europeans especially Celts) and J1 (Semitic and Hamitic peoples that include not only Arabs, Jews, Turks, Greeks, southern Italians, but also Yemenites and Ethiopians).

I think it is safe to say Cleo did not resemble the picture done by Guido Cagnacci which I posted above.

A good book to read about Cleopatra as an Afro-Centric construct is by the feminist and African American professor at DePaul University Francesca T. Royster: "Becoming Cleopatra - The shifting Image of an Icon" (Palgrave-MacMillan, 2003).

Do you want to know what I think she looked like? I think she must of looked something like the late Israeli singer Ofra Haza ... slender, Mediterranean and rather 'Middle Eastern' looking. Except Cleo had a longer nose (the famous "Ptolemy Schnozz"!)

 
Old 07-19-2011, 09:22 AM
 
3,413 posts, read 6,315,193 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skihikeclimb View Post
Yes you stated that the most "Egyptian" looking person you saw in Egypt was a red head. Which is pure foolishness. That is like saying the most Swedish looking person has black hair, brown eyes, and dark skin. Red hair is not very common in the near east. Even modern day Greeks have rather dark hair, and the frequency of lighter hair is pretty uncommon (except for all the Greek women who dye their hair blonde).

You do find red heads in Persia, and India, Iraq, and even Egypt but its still very rare. Furthermore you stated that the ancient Egyptians were displaced by Arabs. Sorry but there is not very much genetic or historical evidence to back up your claim. Claiming ancient Egyptians had red hair, is just as silly as claiming that ancient Egyptians were completely black.
No, I didn't say that at all. You're mistaken.
 
Old 07-19-2011, 09:26 AM
 
Location: Wherever women are
19,022 posts, read 24,683,229 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Guido Cagnacci (1601 - 1663), a Baroque-period Italian painter, painted this famous picture of Cleopatra. Cagnacci was a contemporary of Rembrandt and enjoyed royal patronage in Vienna, where he died.
Awesome painting

I love paintings from that age, especially the buxom women LMAO
 
Old 07-19-2011, 09:54 AM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antlered Chamataka View Post
Awesome painting

I love paintings from that age, especially the buxom women LMAO
Cagnacci knew how to please his wealthy patrons. If a nobleman or merchant wanted a painting of a beautiful woman nude or semi-nude without it appearing tawdry or salacious, Cagnacci knew that by depicting a historical figure - in this case Cleopatra -it was considered acceptable to hang such a painting in the gallery of your palace or villa. It was "fine art" and not pornography. If you wanted a picture of a nude or semi-nude handsome young man, a good (and acceptable) subject was Saint Sebastian, a martyr who was stripped naked and pierced with arrows by Roman soldiers.

This painting was so successful for Cagnacci, it was a real money maker, that he painted several versions of it. This painting can now be found in Vienna's world famous Kunsthistorisches Museum.

The painting depicts a beautiful - and heroic - young queen who chose to commit suicide rather than be captured and humiliated by being exhibited in the Triumphal parade of Octavian, who defeated her forces in battle. The queen's handmaidens witness her suicide by snake-bite and some seem genuinely in despair ... but some seem more fascinated in the snake than their queen's death!
 
Old 07-21-2011, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 11,882,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
Heh. So to speak.
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