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Old 08-14-2011, 04:20 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,583 posts, read 11,769,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY TONE View Post
Actually the Ancient Egyptians and Pharaohs were Blck Hametic people. Egypt's orignal name was
"HAM" Which it was indeed called the Land of HAM. HAM means "Black, Hot, and Burnt". The Decendents
of the land of HAM are all BLACK Africans.
Actually the ancient names of Egypt was Kemet and Hikuptah ("the Abode of the God Ptah"). The ancient Hebrews called it Misr, and that name is Egypt's name in the Hebrew scriptures, and it is also the official name of Egypt in Arabic: El Misr.

It was the ancient Greeks who called the land Aegyptos.

No doubt Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator of the Ptolemaic Dynasty referred to her kingdom as Aegyptos, since Greek was her native tongue and the official court language at Alexandria.

I have never seen Egypt referred to as "Ham" ... can you please cite your sources? I find your assertion very interesting.

 
Old 08-15-2011, 12:02 PM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,454,451 times
Reputation: 1472
We've been paid visits by proponents of the blonde Russian fantasy; the space alien cheerleaders; radical New Agers; the Alexander Hamilton theorists, the green Indian supporters; anti-Marxists and now one of the looniest of them all,......, the Afronuts!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY TONE View Post
Actually the Ancient Egyptians and Pharaohs were Blck Hametic people. Egypt's orignal name was
"HAM" Which it was indeed called the Land of HAM. HAM means "Black, Hot, and Burnt". The Decendents
of the land of HAM are all BLACK Africans.


This Video Shows the true Depictions and Arciologist findings of what
the true Ancient Egyptians really look like and why Napolean tried to
erase there History by shooting off the Noses of the Egyptian Statues
so that it wouldn't show that they had Negroid features.

white man tells truth - YouTube
I believed I covered this topic before but it looks like I'm going to have to tackle this again, so here we go.

Its quite unfortunate, but for upwards of 95% of the American public, they are most likely are unable to distinguish afrocentrism from AFRICANA STUDIES. The former is based on feel good history and (ironically) 19th century race ideology, albeit afro-inverted and largely has its base and partisans in the United States. The latter is based on the hard work of linguists, archaeologists, physical anthropologists, historians and other academics both of European AND continental African origin.

afrocentrism literally takes in whole, the racially distorted view of history of 19th century colonial and slavery ideologists but spins it somewhat to make themselves look better. This is where you hear ridiculous terms like "sun people" vs "ice people". Much like the lunatic fringe cult of Beck, its largely irrational and has no discernible logical structure or coherence to it. Its just about making people feel good about themselves against a demonized Other, basically just self-aggrandizement. And like the beckians, they worship a prophet, except in the afro-nuts case, its the long dead Cheik Anta Diop rather than a living emo-madmad and his famous chalkboard.

As for Diop, I wouldn't necessarily put his works in the same category as the cult who worships him, as some of the English translations I've read of his were pretty interesting and given the time period was not anymore racialist than that of mainstream academia. So I wouldn't necessarily recommend Diop but I would not dissuade anyone from reading his works either. And its not his fault some fringe group has claimed him as one of their own. Basically afrocentrism is racialist pseudo-science and feel good history. I would recommend checking out Afrocentrism by Howe, its an interesting critique and read.

AFRICANA STUDIES is like many other academic disciplines. Historians, archaeologists and other scholars who are experts in their particular fields put their heads together in order to reconstruct past peoples, cultures, civilizations of the African continent. Now mind you, this discipline has been affected by the legacies of colonialism just like every other aspect of the modern world. Thankfully however due to advancements in science and technology along with new discoveries, there has been quite a shift in recent decades.

Shifts produced by the growing evidence for the unity, origin and the evolution of the human race somewhere in eastern Africa and in particular with the origin and of the Afrasian speaking peoples (Egyptian, Semitic, Amazigh and others) in the most arid and challenging environment of them all, the Sahara. Not to mention that the Sahara also played a major role in mankind's evolution and dispersal and in initiating the Neolithic Revolution.

It is incredible how much the history books will have to be rewritten to accommodate the discoveries coming out of the Sahara. Studying the Sahara is not just about studying backward desert peoples, its about the origin and development not only of civilization but of humanity itself.

One of the legacies of the 19th century colonial racialists of separating and chopping off the Sahara desert proper from the Tell of the Maghrib (the fertile area west of the Nile and north of the mountains separating the desert proper), the Nile (the racialists also falsely divided the Nile Delta from the Upper Egyptian Nile Valley which was likewise divided from the Nubian Nile Valley).

The fantastic discoveries made in the Sahara have once more made historical picture clearer and fuller by not only properly seeing the Nile Valley and Delta and the Tell as oases of the Sahara but also the Horn of Africa, along with the regions of Lake Chad, the Niger and the Senegal, even the Arabian Peninsula, the Sinai and the Levant as extensions of the Sahara.

Even when it comes down to events in the colonial period AFRICANA STUDIES has matured beyond playing the blame game and seeing good guys versus bad guys. I recommend checking out Paths of accommodation, Bridges Across the Sahara and the works of Ghislane Lydon especially.

So to sum up, DO NOT CONFUSE afrocentrism which actually has more to do with the societal problems in the United States than anything else; with AFRICANA STUDIES, which is continually advancing, growing and maturing.

Now I am well aware due to the social conditions in the US certain communities have historically been denied access to institutions in which they could be exposed to AFRICANA STUDIES and to an extent this is true to this day. Still there is a lot of info which is now freely available and accessible online and others which can be accessed via a library.

I have noticed with AFRICANA STUDIES, there is much more collaboration between European and continental African scholars. Many of the African scholars often base themselves and publish there works in Europe and in European languages.

Its a shame the vast majority of the public is unaware of AFRICANA STUDIES and would most likely be unable to distinguish it from afrocentrism but I hope my posts (especially the Libya thread recommendations) have done something to help.

Last edited by kovert; 08-15-2011 at 12:46 PM..
 
Old 08-15-2011, 04:13 PM
 
11,571 posts, read 17,501,153 times
Reputation: 17221
The neverending thread goes on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TONY TONE View Post
why Napolean tried to erase there History by shooting off the Noses of the Egyptian Statues so that it wouldn't show that they had Negroid features.
Ahhh the amusing "the white man shot the nose off the Sphinx" legend. Hope this sheds some clarity on the legend:

The Nose Knows

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
now one of the looniest of them all,......, the Afronuts!! .
And you, I find it amusing that you didn't argue against the afrocentric theory when the one 'afronut' (your words) came in and just happened to support some of your other theories on this topic a few dozen pages ago but now, you choose one of your 1,000 word thesis on the evils of afrocentricity. You, sir, are a hypocrite.
By the way - since you have about half the posts in this thread, each at least 1,000 words long, I think the moderators are going to give you your own forum where you can post to yourself to your hearts content.

Last edited by Dd714; 08-15-2011 at 04:24 PM..
 
Old 08-15-2011, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 11,882,584 times
Reputation: 9953
The fundamental question is whether one has a vested emotional interest in the answers either way. That is inadmissible in any serious search for the truth, tending to blind one to evidence. It used to be the only way Europeans analyzed Africa--witness the now-obsolete racialist assumptions about the origins of Great Zimbabwe, for example. Heck, Edgar Rice Burroughs sent Tarzan there, where he found a lost white tribe, solely based on the assumption of his time that 'no way could indigenous Africans have done that.' I find the assumptions flawed and toxic no matter whose they are.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 07:39 AM
 
11,571 posts, read 17,501,153 times
Reputation: 17221
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
The fundamental question is whether one has a vested emotional interest in the answers either way. That is inadmissible in any serious search for the truth, tending to blind one to evidence.
Yes indeed, but I want to take it a bit further in the search for the truth. What is the truth when we talk about events from thousands of years ago? It's a collection of available qualitative and quantitative evidence, combined with extrapolation, combined with, frankly, guessing. Alot of guessing. Theory of egyptian cultural evolution changes from decade to decade as new egyptologists come of age, maybe a tomb is found, or some other significant archiological find. Trust me, egyptology is a very disputable science, it goes beyond race - into theories and counter theories that scientists may base their whole career one, and that they must jelously protect. Almost every comment about Egypt from over 4,000 years ago should be started with a caveat - "scientists currently believe...". One can obviously weed out the 'spacemen helped settle egypt' and the more extreme afrocentric and race-based theories - their is a scientific consensus on the generalities. But one must always be open minded.

You know what is damaging to the truth? See these alternative responses to the same post by two different users:

example one: "can you please cite your sources? I find your assertion very interesting."
example two: " We've been paid visits by proponents of the blonde Russian fantasy; the space alien cheerleaders; radical New Agers; the Alexander Hamilton theorists, the green Indian supporters; anti-Marxists and now one of the looniest of them all,......, the Afronuts!!"

Who would you more want to trust "the truth" from? The open minded or the closed minded? The one who is willing to entertain new theories or the one who already claims to know all? A closed minded person, a racist - both the same to me.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 12:42 PM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,454,451 times
Reputation: 1472
Well, well, well, if it isn't the return of the knucklehead New Ager. Lets see if he's grown a pair since I last humiliated him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
You know what is damaging to the truth?
Absolutely. Its indulging and coddling anti-intellectuals cry babies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
See these alternative responses to the same post by two different users:
By all means lets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
example one: "can you please cite your sources? I find your assertion very interesting."
Look kid, in the real world, nobody cares about conforming to whatever fantasies and fairy tales your mommy and daddy told you. You make a statement you either back it up or you shut (the you know what) up and stop crying like a baby. You either have to be a sheltered high school kid or pampered trust fund moocher not to already know this. If you can't cut it on an internet forum, there ain't no way you can handle yourself in the real world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
example two: " We've been paid visits by proponents of the blonde Russian fantasy; the space alien cheerleaders; radical New Agers; the Alexander Hamilton theorists, the green Indian supporters; anti-Marxists and now one of the looniest of them all,......, the Afronuts!!"
Guess who combines the looney traits of 2 sets of clowns in one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Who would you more want to trust "the truth" from? The open minded or the closed minded? The one who is willing to entertain new theories or the one who already claims to know all? A closed minded person, a racist - both the same to me.
Once again your lack of real world experience and naivety rears its ugly head. Claiming that the Egyptians were invaded by swashbuckling, horse riding Russians; bringing up space aliens; not only refusing to acknowledge information which is backed by empirical, tangible evidence; but also being completely unable to stand up to any peer criticism of your (just plain ridiculous) arguments nor produce any indication that you did nothing more than pull said arguments from your behind. Then you cry and whine when someone calls you out on it. Not exactly the best way to build your credibility, Einstein.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
The neverending thread goes on...
Is there nothing you won't cry about? Don't like the thread, then stop posting so damn much? The conversation started without you and has been going on fine without you. Its not like anyone will shed any tears if you decide to drop off the face of the earth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
And you, I find it amusing that you didn't argue against the afrocentric theory
Oh really, is that so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Excellent points. I developed an interest in the civilzations along the Nile a long time ago. As I continued pursuing this interest I learned one cannot fully begin to understand Nile valley history without understanding the histories of its African relatives particularly East Africa (Horn region) & northwestern Africa (the Sahara). Here are my recommendations.

I will give a few warnings. Avoid the afrocentric stuff like a plague. Its basically an afro-variant of 18th century race ideology.

Africana studies and their works like the ones I mentioned are of higher quality and more up to date. Now it must be admitted there are still traces of the old colonial legacy in the books I recommended and it is shown by how authors will make contradictory statements, but overall they are pretty good books IMO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Like I said J, I linked to texts done by professionals.

There is nothing New Age or Afrocentric about any of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
J, think you should take a look at some of the texts I linked to.

They are completely non New Age and Afrocentric free to boot.

They are the works of professionals from prestigious universities like Cambridge, Oxford and the like.

And despite the Afro-centrist's obsession with sub-Saharan Africa, there has been so many new discoveries within the Sahara that the history books can't keep up.

These are some good texts by Egyptians themselves showing the strong links between medieval Islamic/Arabic & Coptic Egypt to their pharaonic ancestors and the strong links between the spiritual system of the present day northern Egyptians to those of ancient times as well.

As I stated before, there is no need to make false claims about the closest descendants of the ancient Egyptians to be anywhere outside of the Nile.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Through my studies of Afro-Arabian peoples, I am well aware of the distortions, particularly the pseudo-scientific/historical racialist distortions that were utilized to justify the colonization and slavery during the 18th and 19th century.

That is why I equally point out that American Afrocentrics likewise utilize variants of that distorted ideology to further their own racialist ideologies.

You keep using the term "black african" but do you realize this is likewise a foreign, colonized terminology?

That is not what the people the term refers to would have called themselves, and in fact they did not appreciate that term at all (see p.234).

Those terms especially during the mid to late 18th-19th century were not objective nor neutral.

There was an ideology behind them, empowering them, along with certain erroneous value judgments.

As I previously stated, those terms and the ideology associated with them was completely alien to the cultural worldview of Afro-Arabian peoples.

And like a intrusive infection, that ideology has proven to be fatally disastrous once it was artificially grafted onto Afro-Arabian peoples.

The horrendous conflicts of Rwanda, Sudan, & Mauritania for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Lou, knowing the history of those terms, the ideology behind them, and the havoc they have and still continue to wreak on both sides of the Atlantic, I'm with Brace that those loaded terms should be abandoned.

Sorry but these n-words cannot have their meanings changed.

They have just too much negative history behind them.

They should be exposed for the fallacies they have perpetuated, and the ideology empowering them, debunked and destroyed.

Lou, maybe you could find out if any of the Ptolemies mummies have been discovered and identified. That along with a genealogical record, would shed light on Cleo's ancestry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
I think its time for me to make an important statement here.

When you're trying to understand a different culture, whether ancient or modern, its best to have enough respect for that culture that you try to understand it on its own terms.

Trying to project your own racial ideology and phobias unto a culture that would have alien to that sort of demented thinking, is the tell tale sign of pseudo-historian and a flat out liar.

Frankly from my studies of Afro-Arabian people, the race ideology of the 18th and 19th century (whose ideological variants and descendants have manifested themselves in this very thread) would be totally incompatible with them culturally. (see p. 30)

Now I'm not saying they were color blind or anything like that, but they seemed to have placed more emphasis on what language you spoke, what religion you practiced, what clan, tribe, city or town you belong to.

Color was a describing characteristic rather than a defining characteristic.

The modern day ideological descendants of the 18 & 19th century pseudo-racialist historians and scientists are not just those of Euro descent in the West. And I don't just mean the Afrocentrics. (see p. 6 and Caleb chapter p. 77 especially)

That pseudo-race ideology of the 18th and 19th centuries is a major contributing factor to severe ethnic conflicts going on in Mauritania, Sudan, and other parts of Saharan and north African peoples.

As I posted previously there are many Western and non-Western scholars that are coming up with the latest archaeological discoveries that are not only rewriting the history books but debunking damn near all the misconceptions that have been propagated over the centuries.

I'll end with this.

Anyone that consistently insists on placing the origin of the Nile Valley civilization along with the modern populations that are closest to the ancient Egyptians in terms of ancestry and culture, outside of the Nile Valley and the Sahara, is either a flat out liar and a fraud or just a know nothing know it all (like a certain New Ager who belongs on a Stargate Atlantis forum rather than a history one ).
Looks like my little boy hasn't changed at all. He's even more clueless about the recent past than the ancient one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
when the one 'afronut' (your words)
Lets be clear on this, in no way, shape or form did I belittle Lou or even attempt to belittle Lou. Frankly, like a man: Lou actually and clearly stated his position and also take the initiative and effort to back up his statements with source material. Louie also flat out said there was no evidence that Cleo was anything other than Hellenic Macedonian descent. I did not agree with all his arguments but at least he presented himself with some dignity.

HAAA, HA, HA! And you know what I find amusing, its how different Louie was compared to a certain no nothing, know it all, who when you call him out on his nonsense, CRIES LIKE A BIAAAATCH!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
came in and just happened to support some of your other theories on this topic a few dozen pages ago but now, you choose one of your 1,000 word thesis on the evils of afrocentricity.
Not surprisingly, actual paragraphs consisting of a lot of big words confuses. And let me tell you something little boy, I am not your daddy, I am not your baby sitter and I am not here to protect and coddle you from the big bad Louies of the world. You are not entitled nor obligated to receive anything in this world. A lesson you probably never learned in your pampered and sheltered existence. If you want to be seen as a respected colleague and peer, someone would want to defend then YOU"ll HAVE TO EARN THAT PERSON"S RESPECT AND ADMIRATION, princess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
You, sir, are a hypocrite.
And once again, space aliens guy has turned out to be a complete and utter failure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
By the way - since you have about half the posts in this thread, each at least 1,000 words long, I think the moderators are going to give you your own forum where you can post to yourself to your hearts content.
Again with the 1,000 words. Of course this makes perfect sense. For somebody who doesn't like to read, doesn't like to think, my posts would be overwhelming. Their minds, not strong, shuts down after reading so many words. They literally have the mental capacity and attention span of a 5th grader. Anything more than T/F answer, God forbid multiple choice, and they'll cry you're being mean to them, boo hoo.

America, these are your leaders of the future, read it and weep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
The fundamental question is whether one has a vested emotional interest in the answers either way. That is inadmissible in any serious search for the truth, tending to blind one to evidence. It used to be the only way Europeans analyzed Africa--witness the now-obsolete racialist assumptions about the origins of Great Zimbabwe, for example. Heck, Edgar Rice Burroughs sent Tarzan there, where he found a lost white tribe, solely based on the assumption of his time that 'no way could indigenous Africans have done that.' I find the assumptions flawed and toxic no matter whose they are.
jk, the legacies of the 19th century are definitely part of it, but we also have to look at our educational system and check if its producing the citizens we need for the future. Anti-intellectualism seems to be on the rise. The only way I see to counter this is go back to old school basics.

Forget about sparing feelings, love thyself and feel good New Age nonsense. Promote and reward academic excellence and standards and PUNISH failure and complacency.

jk, I don't know if your multi-lingual but if your strictly Anglophone like me, you should keep tabs on whats going on with Canadian scholars like E. Ann McDougall. This woman in particular and the students and staff under her are doing some impressive work, reconstructing Saharan history. The French have done some of the most comprehensive work on the Sahara outside of the Nile and its probably because of the Canuck's dual heritage that we're starting to finally see such impressive work available for the Anglophone community.

I believe Maya Schatzmiller along with author of Trickster Travelers (about the great Mazigh Andalusian scholar Leo Africanus) are also Canucks. Keep an eye on the rising star of Ghislane Lydon.

There also seems to be new group of researchers who seem to be developing a Saharan Studies type of history department.

Due to events in North Africa, I wouldn't be surprised if recent and new digs will be on indefinite hiatus. Now is the time to gently and respectfully give encouragement to scholars who might have some time on their hands to translate sorely needed Coptic/Demotic, Portugese, Spanish, French, Italian, Arabic and Turkish works into English.

Last edited by kovert; 08-16-2011 at 12:53 PM..
 
Old 08-16-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
6,564 posts, read 11,882,584 times
Reputation: 9953
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
jk, I don't know if your multi-lingual but if your strictly Anglophone like me, you should keep tabs on whats going on with Canadian scholars like E. Ann McDougall. This woman in particular and the students and staff under her are doing some impressive work, reconstructing Saharan history. The French have done some of the most comprehensive work on the Sahara outside of the Nile and its probably because of the Canuck's dual heritage that we're starting to finally see such impressive work available for the Anglophone community.
I read French and Spanish fairly well, several others with greater difficulty and limitation. Not a big surprise that Francophones would focus on the Sahara region, considering that it was not so terribly long ago France administered nearly all of it--leaving behind, upon independence, the second or even first language of many countries of the region.
 
Old 08-16-2011, 02:03 PM
 
11,571 posts, read 17,501,153 times
Reputation: 17221
One question Kovert, since it seems that all you have left is personal attacks (and who has the patience to read your incomprehensible and, frankly, self-embarrasing diatrabe? I stopped, after a quick chuckle, after the first sentence), besides your overindulgent plaiger...umm, oh yeah, I mean referenced book segments and references from The History Channel on off topic subjects. Just one single question -

Have you even ever been to Egypt?
 
Old 08-17-2011, 12:06 PM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,454,451 times
Reputation: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
One question Kovert, since it seems that all you have left is personal attacks (and who has the patience to read your incomprehensible and, frankly, self-embarrasing diatrabe? I stopped, after a quick chuckle, after the first sentence),
At least someone's acknowledging their reading comprehension disability. I guess something's finally starting to churn a bit in that thick skull of vast and empty space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
besides your overindulgent plaiger...umm, oh yeah, I mean referenced book segments and references from The History Channel on off topic subjects. Just one single question -
Not surprised that someone dumber than a 6th grader is unable to spell plagiarism much less conceptually comprehend its definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Have you even ever been to Egypt?
Listen to me now and listen to me well: NONE OF YOUR G*D D*MN BUSINESS!!

As it is, given all your temper tantrums and crying, you should be grateful I've pitied you enough to give you such wonderful lessons in the first place.

Sheesh, you give an inch and the losers ask for a mile.

There is no way in million years, I would let some cyber stalking weirdo into my real world. Especially not one with some bizarre, almost homo-erotic fixation to receive my attention and approval. Find some other outlet for your passion and compulsions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
I read French and Spanish fairly well, several others with greater difficulty and limitation. Not a big surprise that Francophones would focus on the Sahara region, considering that it was not so terribly long ago France administered nearly all of it--leaving behind, upon independence, the second or even first language of many countries of the region.
jk, if you happen to have the time and inclination to read an interesting bit (pages 211-216) of Mauritanian/western Saharan history, I have a favor to ask.

I'm interested in learning about the veiled Zenaga speaking Amazigh of that region, especially the tribe known as the Anbat/Idaw'ish. Unfortunately the text is in French. There are many gaps and missing pieces of the puzzle for mono-Anglophones such as myself.

So, like I said, if you have the time and inclination could you give me a gist of what those pages are saying. Any help would be much appreciated.
 
Old 08-17-2011, 01:54 PM
 
11,571 posts, read 17,501,153 times
Reputation: 17221
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Listen to me now and listen to me well: NONE OF YOUR G*D D*MN BUSINESS!! .
hahaha, I guess the answer is no. I was there 8 months ago. You really should go, you're ruined credibility might go up a notch.
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