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Old 09-10-2011, 10:28 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,583 posts, read 11,772,509 times
Reputation: 15398

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
At the least she had a mixed of Native Egyptian and Greek ancestry. But to say that she was 100% white with absolutely no possibility of having any African ancestry is just ignorant and very Eurocentric.

There is an interesting discussion on the African-American construct of Cleopatra VII Thea Philopator by a African-American Professor, Francesca T. Royster of DePaul University in her book Becoming Cleopatra (Palgrave - MacMillan, 2003). A really excellent book, exploring the iconic image of Cleopatra from various Afro-Centric and even Feminist points of view.

I have several dozen books on Cleopatra, including translations of the original Roman histories by Plutarch, Tacitus, and Suetonius. The best I suppose is the very detailed and very lengthy biography written in 1973 by Michael Grant.

Anyway, no one is saying Cleopatra is 100% European because her great-great grandmother was Cleopatra I of the Syrian Seleucid dynasty, and she was often called "The Syrian." So from this we can extrapolate that Cleopatra Thea Philopator was in fact mostly European with a little bit of western Asian in her. Is it possible that Cleopatra had actual Egyptian blood in her? Professor Duane Roller, the chairman of the Greek and Latin Departments at Ohio State University thinks so, in his book Cleopatra - A biography (Oxford University Press, 2010), Prof. Roller suggests the Queen had cousins amongst the Greco-Egyptian royal priests of Ptah, if Queen Cleopatra V Tryphaena was not in fact her mother. That is Prof. Roller's guess, and many scholars disagree with him. I think Prof. Roller may have a point (a delightful elderly man - I met him and had a wonderful conversation with him, he autographed my copy of his book and later congratulated me on my article about the famous queen.)

More to the point, Cleo's contemporaries and her Roman enemies regarded her as a Greek, not an Egyptian. She looked like a Greek. Her name is a Greek word. Her native language was Greek.

Another interesting and controversial question: is it possible Cleopatra was part Jewish? One must remember that Alexandria was about 40% Jewish during the time Cleo was alive; she spoke Hebrew and Aramaic (the language of Jesus) fluently and knew everything about Jewish religion and philosophy. Her Seleucid ancestors were known to have inter-married with Judean families. I'm going out on a limb here, but if it is possible this Hellenistic Macedonian Queen might have had Egyptian relatives I think it is possible she had Jewish relatives as well. She certainly acted like a Jewish Princess ... actually more like a Jewish Empress!

 
Old 09-11-2011, 02:47 AM
 
2,227 posts, read 4,286,685 times
Reputation: 1019
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
At the least she had a mixed of Native Egyptian and Greek ancestry. But to say that she was 100% white with absolutely no possibility of having any African ancestry is just ignorant and very Eurocentric.
-----

Not Greek, Macedonian, she was Macedonian. She had no Egyptian blood...

If you are looking for people with Black blood in Classical History, just as the Nazis did with Germanic blood, you should look elsewhere.

When some black American declares that Cleopatra had black blood, he sounds utterly ghetto and pathetic, really.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 03:50 AM
 
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,305 posts, read 11,813,352 times
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Humor break: find Cleopatra in the audience.


To Zeibekiko Tis Evdokias-Manolis Karandinis-Solo - YouTube
 
Old 09-11-2011, 06:37 AM
 
253 posts, read 414,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post
-----

Not Greek, Macedonian, she was Macedonian. She had no Egyptian blood...

If you are looking for people with Black blood in Classical History, just as the Nazis did with Germanic blood, you should look elsewhere.

When some black American declares that Cleopatra had black blood, he sounds utterly ghetto and pathetic, really.
Saying not Greek, Macedonian, is like saying not German, rather Bavarian.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 07:11 AM
 
13,140 posts, read 35,983,245 times
Reputation: 12074
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post
According to some descriptions, she had a large nose, very unattractive traits and she was bald, but she was very intellectual.
I tend to agree as i think that she recieves way too much credit for her supposed beauty.

I'd much rather see ''Eleanor of Aquitaine'' who was reported to be the most beautiful female ever to live in medieval europe
 
Old 09-11-2011, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
19,362 posts, read 13,027,109 times
Reputation: 14068
Ptolemy I and all his descendants were Greek. They practiced incest just as all the earlier Pharonic dynasties did- it was a part of the religion.

The Nubians were black. Relations between Nubia and Egypt were long, complicated and often warlike. Nubia had its own Kings, some of whom may have also been Pharaohs. The Nubian crown looked like a bowling pin with a cobra on the front, and can be seen on some Pharonic artifacts. The Falcon crown was Egyptian. When Nubia became a firm part of the Egyptian empire, the double crown became the device the Pharaohs wore- the bowling pin was in the center, and the falcon wrapped around it.
 
Old 09-11-2011, 01:52 PM
 
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,305 posts, read 11,813,352 times
Reputation: 8038
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3 View Post
I tend to agree as i think that she recieves way too much credit for her supposed beauty.

I'd much rather see ''Eleanor of Aquitaine'' who was reported to be the most beautiful female ever to live in medieval europe
Meh ...... maybe in a world full of malnourished and cowpox-scarred women.

 
Old 09-11-2011, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,953,575 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón View Post
-----

Not Greek, Macedonian, she was Macedonian. She had no Egyptian blood...

If you are looking for people with Black blood in Classical History, just as the Nazis did with Germanic blood, you should look elsewhere.

When some black American declares that Cleopatra had black blood, he sounds utterly ghetto and pathetic, really.
The only thing that's pathetic is your statement. Bringing up the Nazis in this discussion. Apparantly your the ignorant one. What you are basically indirectly saying is that black people are not important in history in the so called "Classical Area". Its one thing to have an opinion on the racial background of Cleopatra but its another thing to call Black Americans ghetto and pathetic for saying that an Egyptian Queen might have some Egyptian ancestry. Judging by your bold statements its clearly evident that you must have some personal problem with African people having any kind history with the Western World.
 
Old 09-12-2011, 05:31 AM
 
2,227 posts, read 4,286,685 times
Reputation: 1019
I'm not saying that black people are not important in history, I'm saying that black people were not instrumental in any way during the Classical period.

Egyptians were not black or subsaharan black, according to the US Census they are a bunch of honkeys. North Africa is populated mostly by whites. I guess that ancient Egyptians were very similar to modern day Lybians.

Macedonians were not Greeks, they were absorbed by the Greek culture but had their own Indoeuropean language and was an entirely different ethnicity, according to Greeks they were Barbarians.

Last edited by Manolón; 09-12-2011 at 05:42 AM..
 
Old 09-12-2011, 01:34 PM
 
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,305 posts, read 11,813,352 times
Reputation: 8038
Macedonians were Greeks, though some Athenians may have looked down their noses at them, pretty much as they did to many of the other Greek city-states. There were a variety of opinions, here's one by Herodotus:

Quote:
“And that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I happen to know myself, and not only so, but I will prove in the succeeding history that they are Greeks. Moreover the Hellanodicai, who manage the games at Olympia, decided that they were so: for when Alexander wished to contend in the games and had descended for this purpose into the arena, the Greeks who were to run against him tried to exclude him, saying that the contest was not for Barbarians to contend in but for Greeks: since however Alexander proved that he was of Argos, he was judged to be a Greek, and when he entered the contest of the foot-race his lot came out with that of the first." (Herodotus, "Histories", Book 5: Terpsichore 22)
Quote:
It seems that the first Macedonian state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty, who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city of Argos in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead).[7] The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos"). - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)
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