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Old 09-15-2011, 09:16 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3 View Post
All good stuff above in your posting Kovert .

It is kind of odd when pondering about how the powerful Hittites eventually fell to or because of the ''Sea'' Peoples'' and yet the Egyptians persevered.

Any thoughts about that?
To be quite frank 6, my intellectual curiosity might be unlimited, but my time is not.

So I prioritize what interests me the most and right now its the Saharans. However, just as I've already stated, if you and/or someone else has what it takes to step up to the plate and go into the history of the Hellenes from the Minoans and Mycenaeans on down to Cleopatra and beyond, then you guys should go for it.

Last edited by kovert; 09-15-2011 at 09:27 AM..

 
Old 10-07-2011, 09:33 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Herodotus also mentions that the Libyan tribe of Maxyes claim descent from the Trojans. Herodotus clearly distinguishes the Trojan affiliated tribes from the Canaanite and Hellene North African colonists.

It is known that the Libu and Meshwesh tribes formed alliances with the Sea Peoples to invade Egypt at certain times.

You're definitely right 6. The Sea Peoples are some bad and interesting mamma jammas.
6, I have some further details to add to this.

Strabo basically called the populations of what is now modern Syria, Israel/Palestine, and Lebanon by the generic term of Syrians. This was, of course, the homeland of the Canaanites.

Strabo seems to have extended the term Syrians to include even more northernly populations. He called these northern Syrians Leuco-Syrians or white Syrians. I am not sure if Strabo grouped these populations together because they all spoke Semitic languages, or if he did it for other reasons. These Leuco-Syrians were said by Strabo to have taken part in the Trojan War.

Its unclear to me at this time what was the relationships between the Leuco-Syrians, the more southernly tanned and black Syrians otherwise known as Canaanites and the Trojans. Nor what if any connection there was between the Libyan tribe of Maxyes with the Trojans (perhaps Leuco-Syrians?). This question will be something I keep in mind as I progress further in my research and I will be sure to post my results.
 
Old 10-13-2011, 09:04 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
6, I have some further details to add to this.

Strabo basically called the populations of what is now modern Syria, Israel/Palestine, and Lebanon by the generic term of Syrians. This was, of course, the homeland of the Canaanites.

Strabo seems to have extended the term Syrians to include even more northernly populations. He called these northern Syrians Leuco-Syrians or white Syrians. I am not sure if Strabo grouped these populations together because they all spoke Semitic languages, or if he did it for other reasons. These Leuco-Syrians were said by Strabo to have taken part in the Trojan War.

Its unclear to me at this time what was the relationships between the Leuco-Syrians, the more southernly tanned and black Syrians otherwise known as Canaanites and the Trojans. Nor what if any connection there was between the Libyan tribe of Maxyes with the Trojans (perhaps Leuco-Syrians?). This question will be something I keep in mind as I progress further in my research and I will be sure to post my results.
Yeap he lived when the Parthians and Romans controlled that region. However way before Stabo's time it's hard to imagine that the Natufians who populated Canaan and Anatolia had ''possibly'' built Gobekli Tepe some 11,000 years ago ....
 
Old 10-13-2011, 12:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Strabo basically called the populations of what is now modern Syria, Israel/Palestine, and Lebanon by the generic term of Syrians. This was, of course, the homeland of the Canaanites.

Strabo seems to have extended the term Syrians to include even more northernly populations. He called these northern Syrians Leuco-Syrians or white Syrians. I am not sure if Strabo grouped these populations together because they all spoke Semitic languages, or if he did it for other reasons. These Leuco-Syrians were said by Strabo to have taken part in the Trojan War.

Its unclear to me at this time what was the relationships between the Leuco-Syrians, the more southernly tanned and black Syrians otherwise known as Canaanites and the Trojans. Nor what if any connection there was between the Libyan tribe of Maxyes with the Trojans (perhaps Leuco-Syrians?). This question will be something I keep in mind as I progress further in my research and I will be sure to post my results.
Strabo might have meant the Canaanites from the city of Tyre or Tyrians when he refers to Trojans according to this author.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 6 Foot 3 View Post
However way before Stabo's time it's hard to imagine that the Natufians who populated Canaan and Anatolia had ''possibly'' built Gobekli Tepe some 11,000 years ago ....
I know the Natufians were in Canaan but I did not know they also extended into Anatolia. If memory serves me correct from another thread, I believe you are researching the Natufians, correct?

This might not be the proper venue for it, but maybe you should start a thread on them. The Natufians helped usher in the Neolithic Revolution yet despite their great importance in history, I don't recall them being much discussed around these here parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Unless there are finds of her genetic remains, I have and will continue to hold that Cleo is of Hellene Macedonia origin. Does anyone have any records of her genealogy? Given the low opinion the hellene elites had toward the conquered Egyptians, I don't see why the hellenes would allow someone of their descent to rise to such a position of power.
Looks like I'm going to have to make some amendments to a few of my previous statements.

As I posted previously before the Macedonian conquest, Hellenes had earlier established settlements along the Nile:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Herodotus gives a little history of the Asia Minor Hellene descent people in Egypt.

Naukratis was also a Hellene city-state in Egypt from the Late Period.

There was intermarriage with the locals but in that culture and time's social context, they would have still consider themselves to be Hellenes as distinct from the bulk of the local Egyptian population who were at the bottom of the social totem pole.

It might have been the case that native Egyptian ancestry sometimes seeped through this pipeline.
As for whether Cleo had Egyptian ancestry, Toby gives a few suggestions for authors on both sides of the pro and con debate, Sally-Ann Ashton is one in particular I'm interested in.

Ashton notes that at least Cleo's paternal grandmother, along with possibly her mother have origins that are unknown. Now this does not mean they should automatically be presumed to have been of native Egyptian origin. Ashton seems to have put together an impressive text examining Cleo. If I can get my hands on a copy, I'll give a fuller report, but from the excerpts I've read, I'd say it would make an interesting read.

Joan Fletcher is no slouch either, as she delves into the history of the Ptolemaic dynasty from the very beginning.

Within Cyrenaica in modern Libya, where the blend between Hellene and Libyan was so pervasive at all levels of society, its difficult to draw a dividing line between a Hellene speaking citizen of one of the Pentapolis city-states and the Libyan tribesmen (Libya Antiqua has one of the best English essays that delves into this I have come across, so does Cultural Identity in the Roman Empire).

The Ptolemies did intermarry with the Hellenes of Cyrenaica thus native African, albeit Libyan rather than Egyptian, could have seeped in through this pipeline.

The Ptolemies also intermarried with the priests of Inub-hedj (otherwise known as Men-Nofer or Huk-ka-Ptah, though more popularly familiar as Memphis and Aigyptos). Now this is something that I was unaware of, though admittedly, this is not the period of Egyptian history I have recently been most interested in.

The high priests of Men-Nofer surely must have carried a lot of weight since the Hellenes named the whole country after their city and gave their daughters to the priests in marriage. I already knew Manetho had a position in the Ptolemaic court but no where else can I recall an author giving the cats at Men-Nofer some of their due. Fletcher does mention the possibility that Cleo had an Egyptian mother, but as Toby and Ashton point out, there is no solid evidence for it.

So I still hold onto my position that Cleo was of Hellene Macedonian descent, but as more recent authors are pointing out, the native Egyptian aspect of the Ptolemaic period should no longer been seen as being solely one of marginalization and oppression. Certain factions and interest groups among the native Egyptians (as well as Libyans) collaborated with and often thrived off their connections and relationships with the Hellene ruling class while others might have been indifferent if not in outright revolt (Egyptians from the Thebaid of southern Egypt, in association with the Kuchites and other dissident groups).

Last edited by kovert; 10-13-2011 at 01:23 PM..
 
Old 10-13-2011, 05:10 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post



The Ptolemies did intermarry with the Hellenes of Cyrenaica thus native African, albeit Libyan rather than Egyptian, could have seeped in through this pipeline.

WHICH ONES?


The Ptolemies also intermarried with the priests of Inub-hedj (otherwise known as Men-Nofer or Huk-ka-Ptah, though more popularly familiar as Memphis and Aigyptos). Now this is something that I was unaware of, though admittedly, this is not the period of Egyptian history I have recently been most interested in.

WHICH ONES?
Inquiring minds want to know!
 
Old 10-14-2011, 11:27 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Inquiring minds want to know!
In regards to Cyrene:

Magas who was the elder half-brother of Ptolemy II set up shop in Cyrenaica.

Magas's daughter and heir, Berenike married Ptolemy III thus being a direct ancestor in the line of Ptolemaic rulers. Fletcher mentioned that Berenike sometimes wore her hair in long corkscrew ringlets, which was a popular style among the Cyrenaicans. Long braids/plaits seemed to have been popular among the Puntites, Libyans and Nubian Nile dwellers.

The Macedonian Hellenes had interests in the Cyrenaicans not only because of their common Hellene origins but also the strong fleet of ships the Cyrenaicans possessed.

Other famous Cyrenaicans are Eratosthenes (came close to calculating the correct diameter of the earth, as well as the true length of the year) and Callimachus who produced a catalog for the books in the Library of Alexandria. As I said before, Libya Antiqua has a good English essay on Cyrenaican and Libyan relations, but its almost 30 years old, so I'll keep an eye out to find more recent info and post my results when I finally find something.

In regards to the high priests of Men-Nofer:

The Ptolemy nicknamed Physkon married his daughter Berenike to the son of high priest Petubastis around 145 B.C.E.

Later the sister of Ptolemy X married high priest Pasherenptah. Their son Petubastis II thus had a viable claim to the throne, though this line of priests did not seem to pursue that avenue.

What's interesting is that Fletcher calls this priestly lineage, "Memphite Dynasty" and "Memphite rulers".

Fletcher and it seems Ashton really shed light on the role native Egyptians played during the time of Cleo.

Usually in the works I have read dealing with this time period, the emphasis is largely on the Hellene aspect and the Egyptian part were generally marginalized and ignored. Fletcher and Ashton thus came as somewhat of a surprise. Pretty interesting stuff!
 
Old 10-14-2011, 11:43 AM
 
Location: where you sip the tea of the breasts of the spinsters of Utica
8,305 posts, read 11,811,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
In regards to Cyrene:

Magas who was the elder half-brother of Ptolemy II set up shop in Cyrenaica.

Magas's daughter and heir, Berenike married Ptolemy III thus being a direct ancestor in the line of Ptolemaic rulers. Fletcher mentioned that Berenike sometimes wore her hair in long corkscrew ringlets, which was a popular style among the Cyrenaicans. Long braids/plaits seemed to have been popular among the Puntites, Libyans and Nubian Nile dwellers.

The Macedonian Hellenes had interests in the Cyrenaicans not only because of their common Hellene origins but also the strong fleet of ships the Cyrenaicans possessed.

.....
Ringlets are the hottest hairstyle among women. I sure would have intermarried with Cleopatra if she looked like this:

 
Old 10-14-2011, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Willow Spring and Mocksville
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I believe that we are thinking in modern day racial terms that had no meaning in the ancient world. I have read authors like Cheik Anta Diop, George James, Van Sertima, etc. and attended several lectures sponsored by a study group called Khepera. The impression I get is that when many people talk about Cleopatra and the Ancient Egyptians being "Black", they envision the average Egyptian as looking like the average African-American in any US city. (I fully realize the inherent problem of trying to use any sort of "average" in this context, but this is for the sake of simplification.) I think the odds of this are very remote, considering the location of Egypt and the population dynamics over the past millennium. If "Black" is merely meant to contain some elements of sub-saharan ancestry, then this is a bit more probable. I don't think we will ever know what Cleopatra's ancestry was, unless we stumble across her mummy one day.
 
Old 10-14-2011, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof View Post
Ringlets are the hottest hairstyle among women. I sure would have intermarried with Cleopatra if she looked like this:
That woman is definitely hot, but I prefer to put things in their proper context and not try to relate ancient terms and concepts to modern times, as the two often do not match.

The description of the popular Cyrenaican hairstyle is similar to the description of hairstyles that populations of the Nubian Nile and Punt wore.

Making comparisons to another culture that's distant in time and space is sometimes warranted but other times there are better and more relevant examples that can be used.
 
Old 10-14-2011, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Aloverton
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Cyrenaican hairstyles have gone way down. Lately they're likely to be helmet hair, or beret hair.
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