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Old 01-21-2014, 07:26 PM
 
245 posts, read 269,565 times
Reputation: 242

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Yes, and if you mean it in that sense, then fine.

The problem is, that Afrocentrists like to play word games, suing "black," "African," "Egyptian," "Moor," etc. interchangeably.
Indeed, but saying that she is not African is playing the same game as Afrocentrist.

Quote:
Cleopatra was pharaoh in an Egypt in which a consciously and aggressively Greek ruling dynasty kept separated from the Egyptian people. This is not an opinion or even a mere observation- this is the literal truth, as there was a policy of segregation by which Greeks and Egyptians were subject to different laws.
It is the truth that the two groups of people were segregated, the Ptlomey clan did not consider themselves Egyptian (nor wanted too), kept their Greek routes strong and in tact, and that the Egyptians were ruled by the Greeks - but it still doesn't change that Cleopatra was an Egyptian.

A Greek-Egyptian, yes, but an Egyptian non the less. Not just geographically, but culturally, no matter how what you do, if you live in the center of a country like Egypt for most of your life and your family has been there many generations, you are indeed affected and assimilated into that culture. I'm well aware of all the Rosetta Stone stuff and all that, so I understand what you are referencing, but it still sounds incorrect.

An African American and an Anglo American may pretend to have different cultures, be different people or be segregated - but they are both American none the less. They are culturally more alike than similar, and really the only cultural differences that spawned between them were due to oppression.


Cleopatra and her family were in Egypt for over 300 years. She's certainly an Egyptian in more ways than she would have cared to admit.

 
Old 01-22-2014, 01:42 AM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,214,151 times
Reputation: 5989
Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
Indeed, but saying that she is not African is playing the same game as Afrocentrist.

It is the truth that the two groups of people were segregated, the Ptlomey clan did not consider themselves Egyptian (nor wanted too), kept their Greek routes strong and in tact, and that the Egyptians were ruled by the Greeks - but it still doesn't change that Cleopatra was an Egyptian.

A Greek-Egyptian, yes, but an Egyptian non the less. Not just geographically, but culturally, no matter how what you do, if you live in the center of a country like Egypt for most of your life and your family has been there many generations, you are indeed affected and assimilated into that culture. I'm well aware of all the Rosetta Stone stuff and all that, so I understand what you are referencing, but it still sounds incorrect.

An African American and an Anglo American may pretend to have different cultures, be different people or be segregated - but they are both American none the less. They are culturally more alike than similar, and really the only cultural differences that spawned between them were due to oppression.


Cleopatra and her family were in Egypt for over 300 years. She's certainly an Egyptian in more ways than she would have cared to admit.
Interesting to note that she was the first and only Ptolemy to learn Egyptian, along with seven other languages.
 
Old 01-22-2014, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Glasgow Scotland
14,505 posts, read 11,481,746 times
Reputation: 20995
Who cares what colour she was.. didnt she though model herself on the incarnation of the Egyptian Goddess Isis. and was born in Alexandria.

Last edited by dizzybint; 01-22-2014 at 06:53 AM..
 
Old 01-22-2014, 02:39 PM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,214,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzybint View Post
Who cares what colour she was.. didnt she though model herself on the incarnation of the Egyptian Goddess Isis. and was born in Alexandria.
Sorry mate, but I can't stand these kinds of posts.

Apparently, A LOT of people care what color she was. nor is it wrong to do so, when there are those actively seeking to re-write history.


Did she model herself on Isis? for political purposes, yes. But again, if you look at Egyptian society at the time, it was highly segregated, and it can be argued that the modeling was only skin deep.

It wasn't always successful, by the way. Cleo was much more popular and effective with the Egyptians than her predecessors, but it was very tenuous, and there were the moments when she fell on her face, especially when she tried to introduce Marcus Antonius as a god.
 
Old 01-23-2014, 02:10 PM
 
11 posts, read 13,557 times
Reputation: 14
The role shouldn't be played by either a greek or a black woman It should be played by an egyptian woman. Point blank period. Also people stop claiming cleo had red hair. That's beyond stupid. Even if cleo's mother was sub-saharan african, which I kinda doubt, it would be impossible for her to be black.
 
Old 01-24-2014, 01:50 AM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,214,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
The role shouldn't be played by either a greek or a black woman It should be played by an egyptian woman.
Actually, for accuracy, it should be Greek. She had a hook nose which is so common amongst Macedonians that there is actually a Greek word for it. Historical accuracy demands a Greek portray her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
Point blank period.
No, this is your opinion, and certainly one that is not largely shared. Not point blank. Not period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
Also people stop claiming cleo had red hair. That's beyond stupid. Even if cleo's mother was sub-saharan african, which I kinda doubt, it would be impossible for her to be black.
I don't know what color her hair was, but have they backed it with evidence? That is how history is done.

Last edited by cachibatches; 01-24-2014 at 03:01 AM..
 
Old 01-24-2014, 01:45 PM
 
11 posts, read 13,557 times
Reputation: 14
No, this is your opinion, and certainly one that is not largely shared. Not point blank. Not period.

Yes that was my opinion and I stick with it. I also believe that most egyptians would agree to have an egyptian woman play that role.


I don't know what color her hair was, but have they backed it with evidence? That is how history is done.

There's zero evidence which is why I tell people to stop claiming it along with claiming that she was black and/or white. Now which fact is true? Was cleo pure Macedonian or was she mixed. I know history is determined by evidence. I never stated otherwise. Now gives everyone the evidence that shows what she infact was. If not then I ask you to retract you're statement. There's multiple sources that show uncertainty on the subject if cleo was pure or not. Until we're certain I feel that she should be played by an egyptian woman.
 
Old 01-25-2014, 02:59 AM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,214,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
No, this is your opinion, and certainly one that is not largely shared. Not point blank. Not period.

Yes that was my opinion and I stick with it. I also believe that most egyptians would agree to have an egyptian woman play that role. .
Sure, most Egyptians would, but she would be being played by an actress who looked nothing like her. You are of course welcome to your opinion, but there is nothing "point blank" or "period" about it, and I think most non-Egyptians would agree with me. If an Egyptian wants to produce and finance the movie, then they can do as they like, of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
I don't know what color her hair was, but have they backed it with evidence? That is how history is done.

There's zero evidence which is why I tell people to stop claiming it along with claiming that she was black and/or white.
I will have to look into this because you are about to make some statements which are blatantly false. I am not insulting you...I think you have been listening some garbage sources is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
Now which fact is true? Was cleo pure Macedonian or was she mixed. I know history is determined by evidence. I never stated otherwise. Now gives everyone the evidence that shows what she infact was. There's multiple sources that show uncertainty on the subject if cleo was pure or not.
Here is where you are going WAY off the charts into la la land.

There is NO EVIDENCE WHAT-SO-EVER that she was mixed. I saw the silly, oft misquoted article on Arisone. PLEASE CAREFULLY READ THROUGH THE ARTICLE. They took measurements from a skull that might or might not have been Arisnoe's, who might or might not have been Cleo's full sister, and declared that the skull looked "a bit African"

What does that even mean? North Africans cluster with Caucasians as I have shown time and again. Since racial types overlap, "A bit African" could be Caucasian one way or the other, but the fact that they are talking about North Africans, who cluster with Caucasians, makes it a lie to sell an article.

But don't lose sight of the main point: we don't know if the skull is Arsinoe's and we don't know if they shared the same mother (the article explicitly says that they do not). So this is on its face rubbish.

A COUPLE OF ADDITIONAL POINTS

Arsinoe was paraded through the streets of Rome, if you did not know, and no one referred to her an "Ethiope." So I think it is safe to say that she was not.

Finally, I know of no one who has agreed that it looks "a bit African." On top of all of the weaknesses built into the article, this appears to be nothing more than a fringe theory which, thus far, no one has agreed with.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/pressrelease.../cleopatra.htm

SOME QUOTES:

The remains of what isbelieved to be Arsinoe were found in Ephesus, in Turkey.

'Although the relationshipbetween Arsinoe and Cleopatra, who were half sisters,...

'Although it is not possible to tell theexact skin, eye and hair colour from the skull,...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
If not then I ask you to retract you're statement.
I retract nothing. I have superior sourcing and knowledge.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega-Weiss View Post
There's multiple sources that show uncertainty on the subject if cleo was pure or not. Until we're certain I feel that she should be played by an egyptian woman.
No, there is one very silly article. If you can post another, feel free and I will objectively observe. Probably what you are going to find is that your other "sources" are reflexively quoting this one.

POST SCRIPT:

This entire post is in fact based on the acknowledgment that she was, to a small degree, Persian. When you say that she was might have been "mixed," of course, this is known to be true.

Last edited by cachibatches; 01-25-2014 at 03:26 AM..
 
Old 01-26-2014, 09:21 PM
 
Location: The State Of California
9,128 posts, read 11,666,599 times
Reputation: 3418
Default Crickets.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avengerfire View Post
While I admit there is a slight possiblity she could have had a small amount of "black" blood (since the exact identity of her mother is unknown) there is no question a majority of her blood was Macedonian Greek. She was born into a family of incest and inbreeding.

The story below in Essence magazine is quite ridiculous as well as ignorant.

How anyone can graduate college let alone high school and think Cleopatra was a "black queen" is unbelievable.

================================================== ================================================== ==============


""Gasp, the nerve! "She's got the perfect look?" Honestly, I don't care how full Angelina Jolie's lips are, how many African children she adopts, or how bronzed her skin will become for the film, I firmly believe this role should have gone to a Black woman. ""

"Why does Hollywood think it's even slightly plausible to cast White women in roles that would be more sensible to cast a Black actress for? Especially when that role is an African queen."

"Now, Jolie is set to play Cleopatra, who isn't as technically perfect as some would claim if you study the Queen of the Nile's distinguished history."

Commentary: Another White Actress to Play Cleopatra? - Essence.com (http://www.essence.com/entertainment...pa.php?page=29 - broken link)
Who care if Cleopatra was 1% or 3% Black or 100% Black...she had both Caucasian , Asian and Black African Blood coursing through her Queen of the Nile body.


Cricket Chirping - YouTube
 
Old 08-01-2014, 01:23 PM
 
1 posts, read 779 times
Reputation: 10
The continent of Africa is the source of humankind and the original human was "black" in the sense that we understand "black" today. All of Africa, including Egypt was black. During the time of Cleopatra, the pharaohs and queens where "different" than the Ethiopian pharaohs before them, but all leaders had to prove lineage to Ethiopia (and therefore to the source - the "black"). Before Egypt was called "Egypt" the European/Greek name for the entire region of Africa was Ethiops or "black land" and no it wasn't because of the color of the mud, it was because of the people (see J.A. Rogers - the leading authority on pre-dynastic Egypt). Even Herodotus referred to the Egyptians as "black" people because it was known and accepted at that time that Egypt was a colony of Ethiopia. Everyone on the African continent today knows that. The colony eventually became more militarily powerful than the source (same as Great Britain and the U.S.) The refusal to accept this historical fact is understandable in light of the falsification of history that has and continues to take place in western civilizations. Grow up - your refusal to accept these facts only highlights your insecurity. Before there was Europe there was Africa. European civilization is the product of Africa, especially early Greek civilization. It is what it is.
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