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Old 08-06-2014, 11:34 AM
 
1,554 posts, read 1,381,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
As already stated several times, I have only discussed phenotype. It is telling that you have no similar desire to share your plattitudes with the Afrocentric culture-vultures, but in any event, it has nothing to do with anything I have said.



Which has nothing to do with the fact that some are making ridiculous claims that Cleopatra was black, when she wasn't.



Since I am not talking about race but phenotype, it is completely irrelevant. But again, it is very odd that you feel the need to say this to the person who is defending reality and not those who feel the need to lie. Cleopatra was Macedonian, not black, and you cannot deconstruct that away. You look intellectually dishonest for trying.

Next time, please come down on the side of truth and lecture those who would completely re-construct a person's identity for their own self esteem purposes.

Next!
Cleopatra was basically Greek/Grecian. And btw, phenotype does not determine race, or determine whether or not she was black or white or automatically what ancestry she had.

I think it's ridiculous for people to label any group of people by stupid labels like black, white etc.

In your opinion, what is white & what is black?

It's very unsurprising & telling that/how you will distort things for your own agenda or cause or purposes, that overlook the bottom line & broader scope. You are just as intellectually dishonest as you claim others to be as well.

If you would have read further, I actually agreed w/ much of your earlier comments about Cleopatra not being black, but your incessant need & ego causes you to overlook other nuances & aspects lots of time.

Whoever came up with this thread, they need to realize that it's pointless because race is socially constructed.

In your opinion what is black? And what is white?

I think Afrocentrism & Eurocentrism & other forms of ethnocentrism, and that when we as human beings fall into the trap of any ethnocentrism, it leads to the individual resorting to the very same flawed ethnocentric thinking or bias perspective that one claimed to be against.

Next, please try again.

Mind you that I always challenge all forms of ethnocentrism. Are you Eurocentrists or ethnocentrists? I was speaking objectively & in general. Please come down on the side of truth & read between the lines.

As I said earlier in the thread before, Cleopatra was basically Greek and her last name was Ptolemy.

Now an important question for you. Do you think Cleopatra had admixture of any sort? Her phenotype resembled that of her Ptolemy family ancestors, although some people in recent years have tried to Blacken or whiten her but she probably didn't fit into either so called white or so called black category. Although she was mostly Greek as we know.

What do you believe Cleopatra looked like?

Last edited by SobreTodo; 08-06-2014 at 12:17 PM..

 
Old 08-06-2014, 12:23 PM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,212,714 times
Reputation: 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Cleopatra was basically Greek/Grecian. And btw, phenotype does not determine race, or determine whether or not she was black or white or automatically what ancestry she had.
How many times do I have to tell you that I have said nothing about race? You are talking to yourself. This is part of the problem with subjects like this...you get people who cannot follow what is being said and want to talk about their own issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
I think it's ridiculous for people to label any group of people by stupid labels like black, white etc.
Then why not go after the culture vultures who do it? There is nothing absurd about saying the Cleopatra was Caucasian when Afrocentrists imply that she was black.

What a load of absolute horse ****. Phenotypes exist and are not only legitimate, but they are extremely important in our society for such things as police work. The lines blur, sure, but that doesn't mean that they have no legitimacy. This is an example of political correctness gone bonkers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
In your opinion, what is white & what is black?
As a Greek with a bit of Persian, she clusters with Caucasians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
It's very unsurprising & telling that/how you will distort things for your own agenda or cause or purposes, that overlook the bottom line & broader scope. You are just as intellectually dishonest as you claim others to be as well.
I have distorted nothing but only stated the truth. The Afrocentrists are distorting the truth by saying that she is black, which she is not by any definition. It is almost as if people like you have lost their minds. they are telling the lie, I am telling the truth. Cleopatra was not black in any sense, and just because you don't like labels does not mean that they don't/shouldn't exist.

But yes, you are being intellectually dishonest. Others are attacking known facts, I am defending them, and yet I have to hear your nonsensical deconstructions of phenotype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
If you would have read further, I actually agreed w/ much of your earlier comments about Cleopatra not being black, but your incessant need & ego causes you to overlook other nuances & aspects lots of time.
And yet I get the lecture, not the Afrocentrists. And over a complete nonsensical position such as there is no such things as phenotype. First you lecture me about race, and then you realize that I said nothing about race and take the non-sensical position that phenotype does not exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Whoever came up with this thread, they need to realize that it's pointless because race is socially constructed.
I don't know how many time is have to tell you that we are not talking about race, but phenotype, which does exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
In your opinion what is black? And what is white?
Silly platitudes. Ask your local police forensics expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
I think Afrocentrism & Eurocentrism & other forms of ethnocentrism, and that when we as human beings fall into the trap of any ethnocentrism, it leads to the individual resorting to the very same flawed ethnocentric thinking or bias perspective that one claimed to be against.
The old Eurocentric is just as bad as Afrocentric line.

Do you have any ability to follow an argument? Cleopatra WAS Macedonian, NOT black African. there is nothing Eurocentric about saying that she clustered with Caucasians, because she did. It is Afrocentric...and down right stupid...to claim she was a black African. Yes, these terms have meaning. If you don't understand that then you should probably leave the thread as you can't possibly contribute.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Next, please try again.

Mind you that I always challenge all forms of ethnocentrism. Are you Eurocentrists or ethnocentrists? I was speaking objectively & in general. Please come down on the side of truth & read between the lines..
Complete gibberish. Stating the truth is not ethnocentric, Eurocentric, whatever. You honestly don't seem to understand the terms you are attempting to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
As I said earlier in the thread before, Cleopatra was basically Greek and her last name was Ptolemy.
She was Macedonian Greek with a smattering of Persian, as far as anyone knows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Now an important question for you. Do you think Cleopatra had admixture of any sort?
Persian, as far as it is known. I have said so literally half a dozen time snow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Her phenotype resembled that of her Ptolemy family ancestors, although some people in recent years have tried to Blacken or whiten her but she probably didn't fit into either so called white or so called black category. Although she was mostly Greek as we know.
Which is why I have said again and again that she would cluster with Caucasian. Greeks have some old European which is not exactly "white" but certainly clusters with Caucasian. Macedonians, I believe (though I am not sure) are more purely Indo-European. Persians are an Indo-European people and that far back could probably comfortably be called white.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 12:12 PM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,212,714 times
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Mod cut: Quoted post has been deleted.

Egypt is not white but they are not black either. They are a mixed race, and have been at least since the paleolithic.

The situation is further complicated because a lot of evolution towards "Caucasian" features took place in Africa. So these discussions always break down into complicated dissections of phenotypes, genotypes, etc.

They are basically the same people that they have always been, and this has been proven any number of times. You can find ancient Egyptians that looked black, and you can also find them with red hair and strikingly Caucasian features. Basically, most of them looked like North Africans, a people who resemble Middle easterners since they evolved on the same latitude. The Afrocentric theory of invasions "whitening" the Egyptians is incorrect. DNA tests show that there has been more "darkening" due to the Arab slave trade, but it is probably basically a wash.

Cleopatra, who this thread is about, was white by any definition. Her ancestors marched with Alexander the Great. No one of any education really disputes this.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. There are wonderful black queens in history from Kandake is Nubia to Amina in West Africa. Maybe I will make my own black queen thread one of these days.

Last edited by PJSaturn; 08-16-2014 at 08:18 AM..
 
Old 08-15-2014, 12:37 PM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,289,077 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Egypt is not white but they are not black either. They are a mixed race, and have been at least since the paleolithic.

The situation is further complicated because a lot of evolution towards "Caucasian" features took place in Africa. So these discussions always break down into complicated dissections of phenotypes, genotypes, etc.

They are basically the same people that they have always been, and this has been proven any number of times. You can find ancient Egyptians that looked black, and you can also find them with red hair and strikingly Caucasian features. Basically, most of them looked like North Africans, a people who resemble Middle easterners since they evolved on the same latitude. The Afrocentric theory of invasions "whitening" the Egyptians is incorrect. DNA tests show that there has been more "darkening" due to the Arab slave trade, but it is probably basically a wash.

Cleopatra, who this thread is about, was white by any definition. Her ancestors marched with Alexander the Great. No one of any education really disputes this.

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me. There are wonderful black queens in history from Kandake is Nubia to Amina in West Africa. Maybe I will make my own black queen thread one of these days.

Indeed, you are knowledgeable in some areas. YES, It is said her ancestors served under Alexander. It is also noted her grandmother's heritage is truly unknown. Thus she could have been Africa. Geographically we should not be surprise if this to be true. Accordingly, there's only about a third of her heritage actually secured.

Cleopatra may also be one we can not claim, pal.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 12:50 PM
 
Location: SC
2,967 posts, read 3,954,885 times
Reputation: 6809
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPECFRCE View Post
It is also noted her grandmother's heritage is truly unknown. Thus she could have been Africa. Geographically we should not be surprise if this to be true. Accordingly, there's only about a third of her heritage actually secured.

Cleopatra may also be one we can not claim, pal.
What part of DNA testing do you not understand?

For the 100th time, she has been DNA tested, and she is not African. Truth. Fact. Reality. Science.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 12:57 PM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,212,714 times
Reputation: 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPECFRCE View Post
Indeed, you are knowledgeable in some areas. YES, It is said her ancestors served under Alexander. It is also noted her grandmother's heritage is truly unknown. Thus she could have been Africa. Geographically we should not be surprise if this to be true. Accordingly, there's only about a third of her heritage actually secured.

Cleopatra may also be one we can not claim, pal.
Her family, by design, was incestuous.

The next poster down is citing a DNA test which I am not aware of. That aside for the moment, it would not surprise me if some African got in there. The problem is, this is not how history is done. If someone wishes to introduce an idea, they have to present evidence for it.

Thus far, the only evidence that I have seen presented is the one silly article about her suspected half sister. As I have demonstrated, if you read it critically, you see that the article gives no indication about Cleopatra for various reasons, and basically amounts to someone parsing their words carefully to sell their research.

What is more, as delineated, Egyptian does not equal black African. So the answer to the thread is probably "no" regardless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmachina View Post
What part of DNA testing do you not understand?

For the 100th time, she has been DNA tested, and she is not African. Truth. Fact. Reality. Science.
I would be very interested to see this DNA test. I don't think they have Cleo's body, so who exactly where they testing? Her father?
 
Old 08-15-2014, 01:04 PM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,289,077 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmachina View Post
What part of DNA testing do you not understand?

For the 100th time, she has been DNA tested, and she is not African. Truth. Fact. Reality. Science.
May I inquire of the firm assuming credit for such testing of Cleopatra VII's DNA?
 
Old 08-15-2014, 01:11 PM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,289,077 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Her family, by design, was incestuous.

The next poster down is citing a DNA test which I am not aware of. That aside for the moment, it would not surprise me if some African got in there. The problem is, this is not how history is done. If someone wishes to introduce an idea, they have to present evidence for it.

Thus far, the only evidence that I have seen presented is the one silly article about her suspected half sister. As I have demonstrated, if you read it critically, you see that the article gives no indication about Cleopatra for various reasons, and basically amounts to someone parsing their words carefully to sell their research.

What is more, as delineated, Egyptian does not equal black African. So the answer to the thread is probably "no" regardless.




I would be very interested to see this DNA test. I don't think they have Cleo's body, so who exactly where they testing? Her father?

However, nor did this equates to white. I would actually enjoy the truth.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 01:13 PM
 
3,070 posts, read 2,212,714 times
Reputation: 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPECFRCE View Post
However, nor did this equates to white. I would actually enjoy the truth.
As clearly delineated two posts ago, we agree on this. It is actually a very complicated issue. You are making attacks for no reason except to gratify tyour own faux righteousness.

What is more, please read the title of the thread. That is what I am responding to.

Also, I am not sure that you understand that there is no evidence what-so-ever that she was anything other than Macedonian with a smattering of Persian.

You do yourself no good with this kind of misplaced invective.

POST SCRIPT: another thing here that the Afro-centric crowd is missing is that Ptolemaic Egypt was a very highly segregated society seething with racial tensions between native Egyptians, Greeks, and others. For a Ptolemy to take an Egyptian bride would be like Jefferson Davis marrying a black women.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,947,952 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
POST SCRIPT: another thing here that the Afro-centric crowd is missing is that Ptolemaic Egypt was a very highly segregated society seething with racial tensions between native Egyptians, Greeks, and others. For a Ptolemy to take an Egyptian bride would be like Jefferson Davis marrying a black women.
You can't compare racial ideology of 18th-19th century North America to Ancient Africa. There was no concept of race back at that time the way we see race more modernly. Also there is no Afro-centric crowed on this thread.
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