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Old 08-15-2014, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
Reputation: 5230

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPECFRCE View Post
However, nor did this equates to white. I would actually enjoy the truth.
He keeps on using terms like "Black African" as if they mean anything in the ancient world. "Black" could mean anything. It's only skin color.

 
Old 08-15-2014, 04:57 PM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,288,885 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
As clearly delineated two posts ago, we agree on this. It is actually a very complicated issue. You are making attacks for no reason except to gratify tyour own faux righteousness.

What is more, please read the title of the thread. That is what I am responding to.

Also, I am not sure that you understand that there is no evidence what-so-ever that she was anything other than Macedonian with a smattering of Persian.

You do yourself no good with this kind of misplaced invective.

POST SCRIPT: another thing here that the Afro-centric crowd is missing is that Ptolemaic Egypt was a very highly segregated society seething with racial tensions between native Egyptians, Greeks, and others. For a Ptolemy to take an Egyptian bride would be like Jefferson Davis marrying a black women.

"I would enjoy the truth" would be designated for the truth of Cleopatra's actual make-up and not your post. we- indeed agreed previously.
The demeanor of your post appear condescending, unfortunately some of your knowledge displayed becomes easily lost due to said demeanor.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 06:54 PM
 
3,068 posts, read 2,212,714 times
Reputation: 5986
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
You can't compare racial ideology of 18th-19th century North America to Ancient Africa. There was no concept of race back at that time the way we see race more modernly. Also there is no Afro-centric crowed on this thread.
There was concept of race back then. You listen to nothing but gibberish.

Ptolemaic Egypt was highly segregated. Egyptians and Greeks were actually subject to different laws. This is factual and you can probably read about it with a five minute google search.

You don't know this because you only listen to Afrocentric crap.

And please stop with the emoticons and giffs. They make you look like a child, and not a particularly bright one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
He keeps on using terms like "Black African" as if they mean anything in the ancient world. "Black" could mean anything. It's only skin color.

If you honestly think that there was no concept of a black African back then, then you are a colossal moron almost beyond description. The word for black African was Aithiope.

I guess I just imagined the passage in Livy where he described the races of Hannibal's troops, making clear difference between the Punics, the Africans, and the mixed? I guess I just imagined the speech of emperor Claudius described in Tacitus regarding how accepting those of different races helped build Rome?

Last edited by cachibatches; 08-15-2014 at 07:17 PM..
 
Old 08-15-2014, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
16,116 posts, read 20,145,602 times
Reputation: 8204
Cleopatra was Greek, she was the granddaughter of Greek General Ptolimese who took over the Province when Alexander the Great died. Their practice was to marry within their family so there was no mixing.
 
Old 08-15-2014, 08:59 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,583 posts, read 11,763,332 times
Reputation: 15398
None of the ancient classical historians described her as being "black" ... but rather as a "Greek" ... but in a couple of cases as an "Easterner."

Fun fact: the name "Cleopatra" means "the glory of her father" in Greek. She was never called Cleopatra VII in her time, the numbering system (such as Ptolemy XI or Berenice II or Cleopatra III) is a modern affectation. Her real name was Cleopatra Thea Philopator, which means The Glory Of Her Father, a Goddess, Who Loves Her Father.

Now, Roman historians (who were not fair in their accounts of Cleo, BTW) such as Plutarch, Suetonius, Tacitus, Cassius Deo, Josephus (a Roman Jew), etc. did describe Queen Kandake (called "Candace") of Ethiopia as "black" or at least "dark skinned" but they didn't call the Hellenistic Macedonian queen who ruled out of Alexandria by those terms. It was reported that Cleo and Candace were friends and allies ... and Cleo - who was brilliant at mastering foreign languages - was even fluent in the tongue of Ethiopia just as she was in Hebrew and nearly a dozen others. Only Deo claimed Cleo was exceptionally beautiful to look at; one of the others claimed she even used magic potions to ensnare Julius and Mark.
 
Old 08-18-2014, 07:46 AM
 
37 posts, read 32,677 times
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Suffice to say that she was a Ptolomean,
 
Old 08-18-2014, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
Reputation: 5230

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xdh92xxSIjU
 
Old 08-18-2014, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobreTodo View Post
Uh, my comment was to both you and gwillyphilly, & the OP in general. I despise all forms of ethnocentrism.
Not sure why you mentioned me in that statement. I never said anything about a certain group, culture, or perspective being superior to another.
 
Old 08-18-2014, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Bronx
14,780 posts, read 17,397,072 times
Reputation: 7508
Cleopatra is not black or African. She is an ethnic Greek. After the death of the Greek king who ruled an area from Greece to the borders of India known as Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great did not pick or choose an successor to his throne. His empire breaks apart into different factions by his former jealous generals who fight each other for control of Greece, the Mediterranean and the Levant which proved disastrous because Greek Kingdoms become weak allowing the Romans to conquer the Greek Kingdoms of the Middle East. Egypt at the time had powerful number of Greek migrants who lived separately from the local Egyptians. This type of segregation from Greek and Egyptian lead to plenty of rebellions which weakened Egypt. Egyptians were not even allowed to serve in the Greek Army, compared to other Greek states that did allow natives to fight alongside them but not in the main body of a unit. Even though the Greeks did adopt Egpytian customs and religion, they still preserved Hellenism and only intermixed with fellow Greeks or even Romans but never with Egyptians. By time the Roman conquest, Romans also allowed the Greeks to maintain power and order in Alexanderia.
 
Old 08-18-2014, 09:32 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,385 posts, read 9,945,414 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bronxguyanese View Post
Cleopatra is not black or African. She is an ethnic Greek. After the death of the Greek king who ruled an area from Greece to the borders of India known as Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great did not pick or choose an successor to his throne. His empire breaks apart into different factions by his former jealous generals who fight each other for control of Greece, the Mediterranean and the Levant which proved disastrous because Greek Kingdoms become weak allowing the Romans to conquer the Greek Kingdoms of the Middle East. Egypt at the time had powerful number of Greek migrants who lived separately from the local Egyptians. This type of segregation from Greek and Egyptian lead to plenty of rebellions which weakened Egypt. Egyptians were not even allowed to serve in the Greek Army, compared to other Greek states that did allow natives to fight alongside them but not in the main body of a unit. Even though the Greeks did adopt Egpytian customs and religion, they still preserved Hellenism and only intermixed with fellow Greeks or even Romans but never with Egyptians. By time the Roman conquest, Romans also allowed the Greeks to maintain power and order in Alexanderia.
I never understood why there was such a huge argument over Cleopatra's skin color. What particular skin color or race she is doesn't change what she already accomplished in history. Even though her ancestry may not be fully indigenous to the African continent, she still identified herself as Egyptian not Greek. Even if she is 100% Greek in origin, is that suppose to make modern day Greeks or Europeans feel good about themselves or pat themselves on the back? I don't see how this would have an affect on their daily lives other that bragging rights and ego inflation.
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