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Old 08-20-2014, 04:41 PM
 
11,584 posts, read 17,514,675 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Are you and that other poster the same person?
Myself and Kovert? LOL...if I remember we had a very nasty debate on this or a similar subject a few years ago (but it's all in the past and I don't take anything on this forum seriously). But we are definetly not the same person. Why would you think that?

 
Old 08-20-2014, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,386 posts, read 9,958,169 times
Reputation: 5230
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Myself and Kovert? LOL...if I remember we had a very nasty debate on this or a similar subject a few years ago (but it's all in the past and I don't take anything on this forum seriously). But we are definetly not the same person. Why would you think that?
Not you. Kovert and Cachibatches.
 
Old 08-20-2014, 09:19 PM
 
3,088 posts, read 2,221,160 times
Reputation: 6026
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
The earlier post was from 4 years ago before I did any research. I was also relatively new to online forums at the time. Anyway my later points were valid. Not to mention, you're misquoting what some of my posts actually said. If your going to spend a lot of time backtracking my posts, at least post what I actually said. Don't change up my words to make it fit your agenda.
All right. So given your evolving opinions, please answer the following questions.

A) Do you now understand that as far as anyone knows, Cleopatra was Greek with a bit of Persian mix?

B) If not, then what EVIDENCE are you presenting that she was anything but, keeping in mind that "might have been" and "possible" are not evidence?

C) If you do understand, THEN WHAT EXACTLY ARE YOU ARGUING?

Because I will be blunt that I don't think that you have any point at all. I think you are just hanging around to see if you can throw a fly in the ointment...any fly...purely for self-esteem reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Get ready, this is a preview of what's to come.

Americans have been in the business of coddling any dimwit(ty) from philly and now you have whole generations of losers claiming to be nubian olmecs, demanding that you boost their self-esteem.

Americans you git the gubmint you deserve.
Yes indeed, the Afro-centrists have done the black Olmec thing on here.

If you would be so kind, please check out post 130 on line 13 of the following, which is, if I may be self congratulatory for a brief second, one of my finest and most concise debunkings of Afro-loon nonsense:

Olmecs Were Africans?

Note how the same tactics are always used: chest thumping, acusations of racism, non-sequitar arguments, changing the argument again and again and again as they loose on individual points, appeal to emotions, refusal to acknowledge facts, special plea fallacy, assuming the outcome fallacy, endless attempts at deconstructions and objections even to common words, hair splitting, faux outrage, bait-and switch arguments, using non-interchageable words interchangeably, smart ass giffs, emoticons, all other forms of phony bravado that can be conjured, etc.

Last edited by cachibatches; 08-20-2014 at 09:44 PM..
 
Old 08-21-2014, 04:47 AM
 
1,471 posts, read 1,536,132 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert View Post
Get ready, this is a preview of what's to come.

Americans have been in the business of coddling any dimwit(ty) from philly and now you have whole generations of losers claiming to be nubian olmecs, demanding that you boost their self-esteem.

Americans you git the gubmint you deserve.


Reminds me the way Nazi, Fascist and Communits changed history books to suit their world perspective.
I remember that Hitler spent millions trying to find the ruins of a Germanic civilization, but I least in that respect he even admitted that they only produced a few "cracked pots".
 
Old 08-25-2014, 12:05 PM
 
4,990 posts, read 4,456,969 times
Reputation: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Myself and Kovert? LOL...if I remember we had a very nasty debate on this or a similar subject a few years ago (but it's all in the past and I don't take anything on this forum seriously). But we are definetly not the same person. Why would you think that?
And you should also remember I made both public and private apologies about going off topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
Note how the same tactics are always used: chest thumping, acusations of racism, non-sequitar arguments, changing the argument again and again and again as they loose on individual points, appeal to emotions, refusal to acknowledge facts, special plea fallacy, assuming the outcome fallacy, endless attempts at deconstructions and objections even to common words, hair splitting, faux outrage, bait-and switch arguments, using non-interchageable words interchangeably, smart ass giffs, emoticons, all other forms of phony bravado that can be conjured, etc.
Yep, they have a crackhead, crab in a bucket, drag everybody down mentality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miserere View Post
Reminds me the way Nazi, Fascist and Communits changed history books to suit their world perspective.
I remember that Hitler spent millions trying to find the ruins of a Germanic civilization, but I least in that respect he even admitted that they only produced a few "cracked pots".
Yep, aryanistas are definitely crackpots, though I'd put those cheering for another Inquisition in the same category.

Now getting back on topic, Cleo was a Hellene Macedonian and there is nothing else but pure speculation on those that claim she wasn't.

Last edited by kovert; 08-25-2014 at 01:15 PM..
 
Old 08-26-2014, 09:54 AM
 
245 posts, read 269,958 times
Reputation: 242
Was said that she was from Macedonia, which would make sense seeing as how her dynasty were a foreign house. She was probably white, and almost certainly not part black.

Though what is "white" and what is "black" differs depending on where you're from or what era you're in. (for instance, someone from Macedonia could not be considered white by some people during some time periods, I think there was a time when Macedonians/Greeks themselves did not even consider themselves white)


Blacks romanticizing Egypt because it is a great African civilization often leads to them assuming that everyone in Africa is black.
 
Old 08-26-2014, 07:34 PM
 
3,088 posts, read 2,221,160 times
Reputation: 6026
Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
Was said that she was from Macedonia, which would make sense seeing as how her dynasty were a foreign house. She was probably white, and almost certainly not part black.
She would be white by any standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
Though what is "white" and what is "black" differs depending on where you're from or what era you're in.
You seem like a fine fellow, so take it as friendly conversation when I urge that you do not fall for this ******* Afro-loon nonsense.

When their arguments have completely gone off the rails, the second from the last thing they do is begin deconstructing/splitting hairs/challenging words/etc. (the last thing, or course, is to cry racism loudly and repeatedly). I have had Afro-loons arguing for "black Egypt" post pictures of people with clear north/African Middle Eastern Phenotypes and ask rhetorically, as if they were being profound "what is black anyway?" They start to make all kinds of arguments about limb lengths and the like. Anything to divert the conversation from the fact that black is a phenotype easily recognizable by almost anyone.

All race is to some extent a construct, and you could spend the rest of your life examining the minutest differences in various populations...and looking at other people's constructs. She was basically white and that is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
(for instance, someone from Macedonia could not be considered white by some people during some time periods,
We are modern Westerners, so of course we are talking about modern Western perspective. She would be well within the range of white. There might be some Africans here in the argument...she would not be "black" from any perspective that they could possibly have except the lunatic one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
I think there was a time when Macedonians/Greeks themselves did not even consider themselves white)
Since you are interested, I would love to talk about the history of this a bit, but keep in mind that the final answer is that they were white, especially Macedonians.

The Greeks were often referred as "olive skinned," and compared to most European groups, given to swarthiness. The reason is that Greeks are a mix of Old Europeans and Indo-Europeans.

The Old Europeans were swarthy, but had Caucasian features, and some even had blue eyes (there is an extant thread on it somewhere). You can look in Turkey and see purer representations of this racial type today, although Turkey is indeed a crossroads that have had many bloodlines added over the millennia as well.

Indo-Europeans are the ones given to extreme fairness. The reason that Italians and Spaniards are also darker is (primarily) because of the old European mix.

Macedonians, if I am not mistaken (not 100% sure) are much more purely Indo-European than proper Greeks due to the more Northerly latitude.

None of these people were in any ways "black." They fit comfortably into the "Caucasian" or "White" racial group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
Blacks romanticizing Egypt because it is a great African civilization often leads to them assuming that everyone in Africa is black.
It is much more than that. As noted above, Afro-loons have tried to steal not only Africans such as Cleopatra, Egypt, the Moors, and Hannibal, but the Olmecs, other native Americans, Greece, Rome, the Saxons, the Vikings, Shang China, an early East Indian dynasty, and a whole lot more. They even say that "Atlantis" was actually an worldwide African global civilization names "Xi" or "Mu."

It is insanity, or more correctly, absurd delusion fueled by vast insecurities.

They are vultures, thieves...the lowest of the low. And as we see on this thread, no lie is too great, no anti-intellectual tactic too low, no claim to ridiculous that it will not be entertained by them and theirs.

And the sad part is that black Africa indeed does have a history worth studying. But they would rather steal someone else's.
 
Old 08-26-2014, 07:39 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,446,444 times
Reputation: 47456
very much the mode to claim that famous people of the past were my ancestors. much better to worry less about my ancestory and start creating my history today.
 
Old 08-27-2014, 01:05 PM
 
245 posts, read 269,958 times
Reputation: 242
Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
She would be white by any standards.



You seem like a fine fellow, so take it as friendly conversation when I urge that you do not fall for this ******* Afro-loon nonsense.

When their arguments have completely gone off the rails, the second from the last thing they do is begin deconstructing/splitting hairs/challenging words/etc. (the last thing, or course, is to cry racism loudly and repeatedly). I have had Afro-loons arguing for "black Egypt" post pictures of people with clear north/African Middle Eastern Phenotypes and ask rhetorically, as if they were being profound "what is black anyway?" They start to make all kinds of arguments about limb lengths and the like. Anything to divert the conversation from the fact that black is a phenotype easily recognizable by almost anyone.

All race is to some extent a construct, and you could spend the rest of your life examining the minutest differences in various populations...and looking at other people's constructs. She was basically white and that is all.



We are modern Westerners, so of course we are talking about modern Western perspective. She would be well within the range of white. There might be some Africans here in the argument...she would not be "black" from any perspective that they could possibly have except the lunatic one.



Since you are interested, I would love to talk about the history of this a bit, but keep in mind that the final answer is that they were white, especially Macedonians.

The Greeks were often referred as "olive skinned," and compared to most European groups, given to swarthiness. The reason is that Greeks are a mix of Old Europeans and Indo-Europeans.

The Old Europeans were swarthy, but had Caucasian features, and some even had blue eyes (there is an extant thread on it somewhere). You can look in Turkey and see purer representations of this racial type today, although Turkey is indeed a crossroads that have had many bloodlines added over the millennia as well.

Indo-Europeans are the ones given to extreme fairness. The reason that Italians and Spaniards are also darker is (primarily) because of the old European mix.

Macedonians, if I am not mistaken (not 100% sure) are much more purely Indo-European than proper Greeks due to the more Northerly latitude.

None of these people were in any ways "black." They fit comfortably into the "Caucasian" or "White" racial group.



It is much more than that. As noted above, Afro-loons have tried to steal not only Africans such as Cleopatra, Egypt, the Moors, and Hannibal, but the Olmecs, other native Americans, Greece, Rome, the Saxons, the Vikings, Shang China, an early East Indian dynasty, and a whole lot more. They even say that "Atlantis" was actually an worldwide African global civilization names "Xi" or "Mu."

It is insanity, or more correctly, absurd delusion fueled by vast insecurities.

They are vultures, thieves...the lowest of the low. And as we see on this thread, no lie is too great, no anti-intellectual tactic too low, no claim to ridiculous that it will not be entertained by them and theirs.

And the sad part is that black Africa indeed does have a history worth studying. But they would rather steal someone else's.

My statements about what is white and what is black being subjective was a separate point from the Cleopatra argument. I do not think there is any basis at all for Cleopatra being black, and she was almost most certainly white (or perhaps a slight mix with a middle eastern pheno type somehow, as her family was centuries removed from Europe if I can recall), nor do I think the ancient Greeks were black.

They were Caucasian, though I do believe that there was a time when they made a distinction between bronze/olive people and white people during their time, as I believe northerners were seen as barbarians, so there was probably a reason to make segregated terms.


As for your general point, I think it is sad that blacks have such insecurity in what they have done or not done. Considering the oppression blacks went through in America, there have been many successful blacks in the modern era. Not only that, but there is great history in Africa that includes both black Africans and non-black Africans, it is just that current African-Americans are totally unaware to ancient "black" Kingdoms, as they are poorly covered in America's education curriculum (and I presume most of the world). (I am primarily talking about African Americans as they are the blacks I associate most with)
 
Old 08-28-2014, 12:12 PM
 
3,483 posts, read 1,699,482 times
Reputation: 2207
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2cold View Post
Nubian Cleo wasn't. I recall seeing somewhere that her family didn't even deign to learn the Egyptian tongue till her father's or grandfather's rule. They thought of themselves as Greeks, not Egyptians.
Cleopatra was a Ptolemy. She was mostly ethnic Greek (presumably, though I understand that her parentage is not certain) and part ethnic Egyptian (her probable father is believed to be part-Egyptian).

It was Cleopatra, in fact, who was the first of her line to learn and use Egyptian. Cleopatra revived some old Egyptian beliefs and customs, including representing herself as the Goddess Isis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cachibatches View Post
She would be white by any standards.

You seem like a fine fellow, so take it as friendly conversation when I urge that you do not fall for this ******* Afro-loon nonsense.

When their arguments have completely gone off the rails, the second from the last thing they do is begin deconstructing/splitting hairs/challenging words/etc. (the last thing, or course, is to cry racism loudly and repeatedly). I have had Afro-loons arguing for "black Egypt" post pictures of people with clear north/African Middle Eastern Phenotypes and ask rhetorically, as if they were being profound "what is black anyway?" They start to make all kinds of arguments about limb lengths and the like. Anything to divert the conversation from the fact that black is a phenotype easily recognizable by almost anyone.

All race is to some extent a construct, and you could spend the rest of your life examining the minutest differences in various populations...and looking at other people's constructs. She was basically white and that is all.

We are modern Westerners, so of course we are talking about modern Western perspective. She would be well within the range of white. There might be some Africans here in the argument...she would not be "black" from any perspective that they could possibly have except the lunatic one.

Since you are interested, I would love to talk about the history of this a bit, but keep in mind that the final answer is that they were white, especially Macedonians.

The Greeks were often referred as "olive skinned," and compared to most European groups, given to swarthiness. The reason is that Greeks are a mix of Old Europeans and Indo-Europeans.

The Old Europeans were swarthy, but had Caucasian features, and some even had blue eyes (there is an extant thread on it somewhere). You can look in Turkey and see purer representations of this racial type today, although Turkey is indeed a crossroads that have had many bloodlines added over the millennia as well.

Indo-Europeans are the ones given to extreme fairness. The reason that Italians and Spaniards are also darker is (primarily) because of the old European mix.

Macedonians, if I am not mistaken (not 100% sure) are much more purely Indo-European than proper Greeks due to the more Northerly latitude.

None of these people were in any ways "black." They fit comfortably into the "Caucasian" or "White" racial group.

It is much more than that. As noted above, Afro-loons have tried to steal not only Africans such as Cleopatra, Egypt, the Moors, and Hannibal, but the Olmecs, other native Americans, Greece, Rome, the Saxons, the Vikings, Shang China, an early East Indian dynasty, and a whole lot more. They even say that "Atlantis" was actually an worldwide African global civilization names "Xi" or "Mu."

It is insanity, or more correctly, absurd delusion fueled by vast insecurities.

They are vultures, thieves...the lowest of the low. And as we see on this thread, no lie is too great, no anti-intellectual tactic too low, no claim to ridiculous that it will not be entertained by them and theirs.

And the sad part is that black Africa indeed does have a history worth studying. But they would rather steal someone else's.
There simply were not "white" and "black" in this era of civilization. That is a construct of much more recent extraction. Cleopatra was neither white, nor black. She was mostly Greek (Macedonian, specifically), and possibly part Egyptian (through her father's line). Neither Greeks nor Egyptians were "white" or "black."

Ancient Greeks were descendants of Mycenaens and other people of the Greek world. The people who became Greek were a combination of Aeolians, Dorians, Ionians, and Aecheans. These peoples were from present-day Greece and the western coasts of present-day Turkey.

Ancient Egyptians were Egyptian. Their likely predecessors were the Badari, Amratian, and Gerzeh people. Badari are believed to have come from the west, from the desert. Amratians were located in Upper Egypt and appear to have traded with the people of the Sinai and the people of Nubia. Gerzeh are believed to have used a writing system that is a precursor to Egyptian heiroglyphs, which fall under the Afro-Asiatic language group--a broad group of languages that includes present-day Arabic, Hebrew, Maltese, Harari, Berber, Tuareg, Somali, Oromo, and Hausa. The people who speak those languages are immensely diverse.

"Indo-Europeans," too, are an immensely diverse category of peoples connected by language group, not "racial" group. Existing Indo-European languages include Hindu, Urdu, French, Gaelic, Persian, Tajik, and many others. It should be obvious that the speakers of these languages are not "given to fairness." They are immensely diverse.

Your categorization of these peoples as "white" is the sort of delusional insecurity that you claim to detest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by violent by design View Post
My statements about what is white and what is black being subjective was a separate point from the Cleopatra argument. I do not think there is any basis at all for Cleopatra being black, and she was almost most certainly white (or perhaps a slight mix with a middle eastern pheno type somehow, as her family was centuries removed from Europe if I can recall), nor do I think the ancient Greeks were black.

They were Caucasian, though I do believe that there was a time when they made a distinction between bronze/olive people and white people during their time, as I believe northerners were seen as barbarians, so there was probably a reason to make segregated terms.

As for your general point, I think it is sad that blacks have such insecurity in what they have done or not done. Considering the oppression blacks went through in America, there have been many successful blacks in the modern era. Not only that, but there is great history in Africa that includes both black Africans and non-black Africans, it is just that current African-Americans are totally unaware to ancient "black" Kingdoms, as they are poorly covered in America's education curriculum (and I presume most of the world). (I am primarily talking about African Americans as they are the blacks I associate most with)
Same as above. There were no "black" or "white" people in this era. People were divided by language, culture, and empire. It is as ridiculous to call Cleopatra "white" as it is to call her "black." She was mostly Greek, and possibly part Egyptian. Ancient Greek language was part of the Hellenic branch of Indo-European. It was not Caucasian. Caucasian does not apply to Greeks in any meaningful way.

Europeans developed the concept of race in the late 1600s. The concept coincided with the so-called "Age of Discovery," when Europeans developed contacts with peoples throughout the world. The concept did not, and does not, account for variations amongst people. It was a crude tool--a social construct--and its popular conception results in the sort of poor analysis that treats Cleopatra as "black," or "white."
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