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Nobody denies that in the southern parts of Egypt people are closer to black Africans, that is pretty obvious and logical.
But people in Northern Egypt are not the same as those in the South. I don't know who the people on your two pictures are supposed to represent, they sure don't look like average Egyptians to me.
Well considering that the studies above do indeed indicate the precise populations that the Ancient Egyptians were closest to biologically, and considering the fact that the only modern population to overlap biologically with the Ancient Egyptians are modern Sub Saharan East Africans (obviously considered black), what is the problem with the labeling the Ancient Egyptians as such in a social sense of the word?
Louisville very interesting information. None of which conflicts with my comments. 15,000-5,000 BC, wow that's pre-dynatic all right, that's the stone age. Ancient Egyptians didn't even settle into permanent dwellings until about 5,000 BC, a couple thousand years before the time of the Pharoes.
What you say makes sense, the sahara was more fertile and less hospitable, mankind was nomadic....and as I already discussed and didn't dispute, the ancient egyptians were africans. Shades different from western africans, and certainly closer to the lighter nubians, and that in turn "lightened up" as a result of invasions from the north when mankind began to settle into societies around 5,000 BC. You post supports this, as Egyptians certainly don't consider themselves black today. African, yes, but not black (although, who cares, that's there label not mine, I am more than willing to call them nubiam). You even support my attempts to differentiate the upper nile and lower nile tribes, which eventually became two seperate kindgdoms, each with it's own culture.
I think your disagreement is with "mr. politics forum" who seems to disagree with me. I am not sure what he agrees with, I just know he disagrees with whatever I post (if I say the earth is round I think he will disagree with me on principle). You two have fun.
By the way, was Cleapatra white? I think that was the original topic.
Nobody denies that in the southern parts of Egypt people are closer to black Africans, that is pretty obvious and logical.
But people in Northern Egypt are not the same as those in the South. I don't know who the people on your two pictures are supposed to represent, they sure don't look like average Egyptians to me.
The people in the pictures on the previous page are modern Horn Africans. The same modern Horn Africans that my sources on the previous page were proven to overlap with biologically. So then explain how if not the modern Horn Africans to represent the ancient Egyptians as my sources indeed indicate who they resembled the closest who then? Some of you people need to wake up and except the reality of this ancient. African civilization's origins. The irrefutable evidence linking the founders of this civilization to South with dare I say "Black" Africans and no one else is there for everyone to see.
The people in the pictures on the previous page are modern Horn Africans. The same modern Horn Africans that my sources on the previous page were proven to overlap with biologically. So then explain how if not the modern Horn Africans to represent the ancient Egyptians as my sources indeed indicate who they resembled the closest who then? Some of you people need to wake up and except the reality of this ancient. African civilization's origins. The irrefutable evidence linking the founders of this civilization to South with dare I say "Black" Africans and no one else is there for everyone to see.
Well, genetically speaking modern Egyptians are largely (in one of those source on the previous pages it said 90%) the same as ancient ones, and go to Cairo today and look around you, by and large people there don't look like people from Somalia or Ethiopia etc.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if they had been black, women from the horn of Africa are quite cute actually But this is merely about history and science, not about racism as some suggest.
The consensus is that Egyptians from the ancient time and modern time are the same. No dispute. I think everyone has been basically arguing the same thing and then you had irrelevant sub-topics that people were grasping at straws to argue over (i.e. - Mr. Politics Forum guy). So maybe the actual dispute is what modern egyptians label themselves as. And that is beyond the scope of a historical topic.
So the modern egyptian is to be considered, genetically, black (a lighter color) - so be it. Modern Egyptians consider themselves white in terms of race. The argument is with them, modern egypt and their own national racial identity, not us. Maybe the conclusion is, in terms of race or color, that it really doesn't make any difference.
The consensus is that Egyptians from the ancient time and modern time are the same. No dispute.
None of the sources on the previous page make such a claim. Hell two of my sources posted on the previous page down right refutes what you are saying. Explain how if both ancinent and modern Egyptians were "the same" (as far as biological affinities go) why does the first source posted state that Pre Dynastic Egyptians ("of the formative period"
) cluster closer to modern black skinned Sub Saharan East Africans than even Late Dynastic Egyptians? If my source about population continuity concludes that the ancient Egyptian population stayed the same for only its first 1,100 years (Pre-Early Dynastic) add with it the fact that the ancient Egyptians of that era clustered with black Africans from the South then how in the Hell could modern Egyptians (who cluster with other North Africans and Near Easterners first) be the spliting image of their earliest Egyptian ancestors? Based on actual scientific evidence YOUR ARGUMENT MAKES NO DAMN SENSE!
No one is saying that modern Egyptians are not the desecendant of the ancient Egyptians because genetic studies confirm that modern Egyptians have retained a signifigant amount of their ancestoral East African ancestry (via haplogroup E) albeit with signifigant admixture. As demonstrated to you same nay sayers from the previous thread pertaining to this subject studies have repeatidly confirms that modern Egyptians based on the fact that they have absorbed signifigant non African ancestry are NOT the spliting image of their earliest Egyptian ancestors. I don't understand why it is the SAME individuals who's arguments against a Southerly origin for Egypt have been debunked continue to spew their ignorance and remain so indenial about a fact that is apparent. The sad thing is that you same individuals who so strongly argue against this FACT offer NO scientific evidence to refute what has been already been presented or confirm what they are arguing...... so what's the point in even arguing?
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So the modern egyptian is to be considered, genetically, black (a lighter color) - so be it. Modern Egyptians consider themselves white in terms of race.
You honestly have no clue as to what you're talking about do you? Modern Egyptian biological affinity varries from North to South. Northern Egypt has been the recipiant of the most migration from Eurasia since ancient times (though the first in that region were proven to be biologically closer to Tropical Africans) and this migration has been the cause of a major population shift in Egypt . Upper Egypt (the South) was where the vast majority of the Egyptian population resided during ancient times while the Delta was sparsely populated. Now the Delta is the most heavily populated region of Egypt (hmmm) and not surprisingly they do not have the biological affinities of the ancients.
Now Upper Egypt (and even Nubia) have also been affected genetically by the Eurasian invasions, but to a much lesser extent than to in the Lower Nile Valley, to where these people STILL have more Southerly African affinities. These Egyptians are still black and are the victims of colorism by the lighter Lower Egyptians. In fact there is a popular new youtube video of a black Upper Egyptians explaining that the Black Egyptians of the South are the closest descendants of the ancient Egyptians and Northerners are moreso the result of invasions. When I have time I will post pictures of modern black Egyptians.
As far as the OP goes no Cleopatra was a Greek lineage she was NOT black. This coupled with the fact that she resided in Late Dynastic Lower Egypt further places doubt of true Egyptian African ancestry.
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But this is merely about history and science, not about racism as some suggest.