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I think that it is important to link slavery to economics and trade. During the agrarian age, slavery was the primary means of building wealth. Hence, the wealthier societies were heavily invested in human exploitation for the purpose of building wealth, especially if this empires, city-states or nation-states were heavily involved in trade and or exports. Think about it. If you are a land owner who owned thousands of acres or hectares and you had hundreds of slaves or peasants, serfs or indentured servants…..what are you going to do with all that produce? It’s way more than you could ever consume or your family. However, selling or exporting it created riches and the captive workforce meant little overhead cost, relative to paying a decent wage.
If you are living in a communal kingdom, without the concept of private ownership of resources, such as land, and that was not heavily involved in trade, relative to other societies, exploitation of the labor of others was simply not that beneficial. If you produced abundance then it had to be stored and rodents, locust and other factors simply made long term storage not very feasible. Hence, people basically consumed what they produced, or the rather, the village consumed what the village produced. I never read about a “leisure class” in African society, other than the chiefs. Everyone worked. If you did not work, and could, you did not eat. As noted in the slave Narrative that I posted in the other thread, it the “slave” in Africa did no more work than anyone else. The presence of "slaves" did not translate to another persons leisure increasing.
In the West, slavery supported and created a class of leisure. It created such wealth that families of the wealthy did not have to spend 10 hour days working. They did not even have to raise their children because they had servants to do that. This meant that people were freed up to educate themselves through formal schooling and advance science and learning. They could take their money and leisure time to travel, explore and do a host of other things that people working 10 hour days did not have the time and energy to do. This is why exploitive societies is where advance learning often took place. Exploited people created the corollary of a leisure and learned class of people that advanced science and inventions. This inventived and learned class then increased the productivity of the exploited to the degree that we entered the industrial revolution in which machine energy was used to replace or reduce the need for human energy.
This is something I've wondered about......what were slaves told about where they were going? Did they imagine that they were going somewhere to "work"? Did the life they lived as a slave in Africa "prepare" them for what they met when the reached the New World?
When Europeans arrived along the West African coast, slavery already existed on the continent. However, in his book The African Slave Trade, Basil Davidson points out that slavery in Africa and the brutal form of slavery that would develop in the Americas were vastly different. African slavery was more akin to European serfdom --the condition of most Europeans in the 15th century. In the Ashanti Kingdom of West Africa, for example, slaves could marry, own property and even own slaves. And slavery ended after a certain number of years of servitude. Most importantly, African slavery was never passed from one generation to another, and it lacked the racist notion that whites were masters and blacks were slaves.
I can only imagine that when the slaves reached America and saw the "real deal", emotions of shock and dismay are an understatement.
Does this perhaps "excuse" African slaveowners in some way because they didn't realize that the Europeans' plans for the African slaves were much harsher than what they would have allowed?
A good premise, but I don't think the African slaveowners were that naive. And, looking at the manner the slaves were transported to America, I don't think those that survived that hell had any illusions on how they would be treated.
Last edited by carterstamp; 07-15-2010 at 01:46 PM..
Reason: Can't spell worth a damn.
Slavery Discussion w/ A Point: African Owned Slaves, Too!
Still do. Slavery still exists in Maurentania and the Sudan.
Anyway, I get the irony of your intent. Slavery has existed in multiple places throughout history. However, slavery in America is obviously the most relevent as today's black folks are about 5 generations removed from it.
Here is an interesting paper on free Black slave owners in America. There are estimates that as high as 10,000 slaves were owned by Black slave owners. The issue here is not the fact that whites owned slaves, but that NOT ONLY whites owned slaves.
The paper also discusses West African slave owners.
Does this exonerate white slave owners? No, of course not. But it shows a clearer picture of this dark part of our history.
Slavery is against all human rights. It is cruel and inhuman to own another human being. But to deny the fact that Blacks were also, although to a lesser degree, culpable, is dishonest.
Domestic slavery was quite common in West Africa, although the Europeans organized the trade to a much greater magnitude and value. Free black slaveowners resided in states as north as New York and as far south as Florida, extending westward into Kentucky, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Missouri. According to the federal census of 1830, free blacks owned more than 10,000 slaves in Louisiana, Maryland, South Carolina, and Virginia. The majority of black slaveowners lived in Louisiana and planted sugar cane. The majority of black masters had not been slaves themselves. Yet, the ranks of black slave masters were diverse: some acquired slaves as soon as they had accumulated enough capital after their own freedom, others received slaves with their own freedom from their white masters, and others had been free for several generations.
My only dispute with this is to have some sense of how slavery differed in Africa and in the New World. For those that say that Africans sold the slaves, I wonder if this can be considered "cruel" if the conditions upon which the enslaved were to labor were dramatically harsher than what was assumed.
But I agree, blacks did own slaves in the US...... I wonder if I would've disliked my condition that much more if my master was of my race? On the one hand, I'd expect a bit of leniency...on the other, I'd feel betrayed.
My only dispute with this is to have some sense of how slavery differed in Africa and in the New World. For those that say that Africans sold the slaves, I wonder if this can be considered "cruel" if the conditions upon which the enslaved were to labor were dramatically harsher than what was assumed.
But I agree, blacks did own slaves in the US...... I wonder if I would've disliked my condition that much more if my master was of my race? On the one hand, I'd expect a bit of leniency...on the other, I'd feel betrayed.
Even if you are treated well, being a slave in itself is degrading and inhuman. You're owned as a piece of property and regarded as such.
See, here are some of the problems with your whole deal. First, I'd say you are in the wrong folder, or whatever they call this section of the website. You're going for history, or at least that's how it seems.
Sorry it seems that way, but no. A frequent debate when blacks discuss slavery is that "Africans had (and sold) slaves, too". I'm trying to draw a possible comparison between how the institution of slavery differed (or not if that's your belief) from what was practiced in Africa.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith
You're trying to find out who is to blame for American slavery. At least that's how it looks. Perhaps you're trying to get opinions concerning what level of blame should be put on which people. All right. I'll play. I'll keep going now that you have all of this written and have clicked on the POST button.
Sorry, no. Seriously, are you not capable of having a discussion without getting defensive and wanting to find ulterior motives for what I've written? Some believe that the slaves that were sent over from Africa were "slaves anyway" and, thus, their life in the US was no worse than their homeland. I'm exploring this opinion and wondering: "was being a slave in Africa equivalent to the slave experience in America?"
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalileoSmith
Those African who sold other Africans into American slavery may have actually owned those people they sold. It might have been part of their culture hundreds of years ago. I don't know that it was, mind you, but it could have been. They may not have known any better, if you choose not to give them any benefit of the doubt. See, I kind of get the concept of "not knowing any better" and think of it as at least something of a legitimate excuse. Kind of a "hindsight is 20/20" point of view. I'm reminded of those old doctors and their practice of bleeding patients. We look at that as being nutty. But those guys back in the Olden Days really thought it was okay.
I'm not saying that African slaveowners didn't know any better than to own other people, but rather that if the life of a slave was vastly different from what was practiced in the US.....should Africans "get a pass"? If the life of a slave in Africa was more in line with being an indentured servant, is it possible that Africans who sold their slaves to the Europeans expected something similar to take place in America?
Slavery Discussion w/ A Point: African Owned Slaves, Too!
Still do. Slavery still exists in Maurentania and the Sudan.
Anyway, I get the irony of your intent. Slavery has existed in multiple places throughout history. However, slavery in America is obviously the most relevent as today's black folks are about 5 generations removed from it.
Exactly. It is relevant because slavery is the history of 12% or so of our fellow Americans.
A good premise, but I don't think the African slaveowners were that naive.
I agree; it doesn't excuse them, but when I read that slaves could marry, own property, own other slaves, and end their servitude after a set number of years, their condition in Africa seemed to be more along the lines of indentured servants. In all honesty, while I don't think it's ever okay to own another human being, if I had to choose between this form of slavery vs. what was practiced in the US...I'll take the African version.
The absolute sticking point for me is that "African slavery was never passed from one generation to another......". This is where I find the American form of slavery to be cruel.....not only were slaves made to suffer in their lifetimes, but their children inherited the condition of being a slave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by carterstamp
And, looking at the manner the slaves were transported to America, I don't think those that survived that hell had any illusions on how they would be treated.
I agree...what a wakeup call. While I know that traditions, customs, beliefs, etc that Africans brought over with them was stamped down by many slavemasters, I wonder if "giving" up these customs and beliefs was easier in the face of being sold "by their own" into such horrible conditions.
Sorry it seems that way, but no. A frequent debate when blacks discuss slavery is that "Africans had (and sold) slaves, too". I'm trying to draw a possible comparison between how the institution of slavery differed (or not if that's your belief) from what was practiced in Africa.
Sorry, no. Seriously, are you not capable of having a discussion without getting defensive and wanting to find ulterior motives for what I've written? Some believe that the slaves that were sent over from Africa were "slaves anyway" and, thus, their life in the US was no worse than their homeland. I'm exploring this opinion and wondering: "was being a slave in Africa equivalent to the slave experience in America?"
I'm not saying that African slaveowners didn't know any better than to own other people, but rather that if the life of a slave was vastly different from what was practiced in the US.....should Africans "get a pass"? If the life of a slave in Africa was more in line with being an indentured servant, is it possible that Africans who sold their slaves to the Europeans expected something similar to take place in America?
Usually I read my own post and few others. My posts are always so much better, you see. But I've read some of your posts in this thread and I think it is possible that African slave traders may have thought that slavery in America may not have been too bad. They may have believed that Afrcans living in America may been well treated and perhaps even had a level of freedom (they could choose their place of labor, or their "master" for example). Now I don't know this of course. But I'd say it's possible.
My original point was that slavery has been practiced around the world for many millenia. It is wrongheaded to proclaim evil those cultures, or all the people who lived in those cultures, who had legal slavery. I can, and have, given numerous examples not involving slavery where what is deemed wrong now was not deemed wrong once upon a time. Those long-ago people are no less moral than modern day people.
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While I know that traditions, customs, beliefs, etc that Africans brought over with them was stamped down by many slavemasters, I wonder if "giving" up these customs and beliefs was easier in the face of being sold "by their own" into such horrible conditions.
