U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-14-2010, 12:49 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,153,378 times
Reputation: 589

Advertisements

?


After decades of the communists occupying Russia...
after the famous handshake between US & Russian
troops over a defeated Germany... why after that...
after WW 2... did the US and Russia become enemies ?


President Wilson in his WW1 speech praised the [democratic]
revolutionaries who deposed Russia's Monarchy.

The bolshevik Trotsky gained entrance into Russia via an American
passport [he had been living in New York] to further the revolution.

After the bolshevik revolution a few American troops were sent
to eastern Russia... but they were there to help evacuate men
and material, not to fight against the bolsheviks.


Why decades later... after being allies in WW2... did they suddenly
become enemies ? What changed ?



?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-14-2010, 03:22 AM
 
Location: Peterborough, England
467 posts, read 366,268 times
Reputation: 391
They'd never particularly liked each other (the US didn't even recognise the SU until 1933) and with Hitler gone there was nothing to keep them together.

BTW, the Bolsheviks played no part in overthrowing the Tsar, so Wilson's remarks are nothing to do with them).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 09:32 AM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
11,244 posts, read 7,348,124 times
Reputation: 8488
There were three ideologies competing for the hearts and minds of 20th Century western culture...Fascism, socialism and capitalistic democracy. The socialists hated the capitalists, the fascists hated the socialists and the capitalists hated the fascists and the socialists.

Had circumstances been different and the western democracies had found themselves at war with the socialists, I'm confident that they would have found a way to make an alliance with the fascists in order to defeat the common enemy. After triumphing, that would not mean that we were now best buds with the fascists or regarded them as any less threatening to our way of life.

The US/USSR alliance was always one of pure pragmatism and was never intended, by either side, to represent some permanent arrangement. It was an expedient, nothing more.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 10:02 AM
 
4,578 posts, read 3,758,911 times
Reputation: 12578
I think the characterization that we became "enemies" is a little bit strong. Enemies fight full fledged shooting wars and the Cold War was not a full-fledged shooting war. Perhaps, Korea was a "shooting war", but even this is a bit ambiguous since the USA did not fight the Soviet Union in this conflict. I think the correct characterization is that the USSR and the USA became "rivals" as opposed to enemies.

Ideology (communism vs. capitalism) certainly played a role in what happened. I think though that there was a certain inevitability to the Cold War that didn't have to do with ideology. What it had to do with was that two great powers were stepping into a huge power vacuum that occurred at the end of World War II. The UK had been declining economically and militarily for years, but it was not until World War II that everyone recognized that decline. By the end of the war, Britain was virtually a bankrupt nation looking to divest itself of colonies. Germany and Japan lay in ruins and would not become viable countries again for a decade or two

So, by default and by virtue of their winning World War II, the USA and USSR became the great powers in the world. Great powers seek to expand their spheres of influence. The USSR did so militarily by occupying and establishing puppet governments in Eastern Europe. The USA expanded its sphere of influence primarily through trade and by establishing military alliances with the Western European countries. Whenever, you have two great powers you are going to have rivalry and the two will butt heads simply to try and show they are more powerful than the other. The USA and the UK got along as well as they did primarily because even the British were prepared to acknowledge that the USA was in the number one position in their relationship.

Having said this though, I think most historians would impute most of the blame for the strained relationship between the two countries on the Soviet Union. The USSR was clearly behaving as aggressor when the Red Army occupied the Eastern European countries and refused to withdraw even decades after World War II had ended. The Berlin Blockade of 1948 was an outrageous act and could easily have lead to military hostilities if the USA had not had the ability supply Berlin with food and fuel by means of the Berlin airlift. The USSR was not satisfied merely with occupying the countries that the Red Army had overrun during the war. It attempted to take over Greece and Turkey through supplying communist insurgencies in those countries. It took a show of military force by the US to persuade Stalin to pull the Red Army out of parts of the country of Iran that had been occupied. Later, when the Soviet Union sent in more troops to suppress rebellions in Hungary, East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia the whole world came to realize that the governments in these countries were truly nothing other than puppet regimes of the Soviet Union which enjoyed no moral legitimacy.

In short, despite differences in ideology, the USA might have been able to work something out, but Stalin and the leadership in the USSR were not interested. Power and force were the only important elements in a relationship for them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,153,378 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikestone8 View Post

BTW, the Bolsheviks played no part in overthrowing the Tsar, so Wilson's remarks are nothing to do with them).


The democratic February revolution turned into the bolshevik October revolution...
the bolsheviks were involved the entire time.

The bolsheviks murdered the Tsar and his family to forever prevent the monarchy from returning.


~
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,153,378 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post

There were three ideologies competing for the hearts and minds of 20th Century western culture...Fascism, socialism and capitalistic democracy. The socialists hated the capitalists, the fascists hated the socialists and the capitalists hated the fascists and the socialists.

Had circumstances been different and the western democracies had found themselves at war with the socialists, I'm confident that they would have found a way to make an alliance with the fascists in order to defeat the common enemy. After triumphing, that would not mean that we were now best buds with the fascists or regarded them as any less threatening to our way of life.

The US/USSR alliance was always one of pure pragmatism and was never intended, by either side, to represent some permanent arrangement. It was an expedient, nothing more.




After WW1 the communists and fascists vied over control of Germany.

Hitler and the fascists won over the communists in Germany.

Then the west allied with communist Russia to defeat Hitler resulting
in the communists taking over half of Europe.

The west chose to ignore decades of bolshevik mass murder of Christians,
ignore the mass murder and destruction of churches by Stalin, then allied
with Stalin to destroy the enemy of the communists.




~
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 11:36 AM
 
2 posts, read 16,910 times
Reputation: 11
Default Opposing economic and political systems

We....as a species, not simply as US citizens... have never embraced those who are different from ourselves. Perfect communism is on the opposite end of the spectrum from capitalism. Corporate America could never snuggle up to a society that advocated the distribution of wealth, and Americans could never accept a society intended --- in theory --- to be without social classes. "All men created equal..." sounds good but was no more accepted in reality then than now..."created" maybe, but the majority of Americans seek to elevate themselves above the social class they were born to and hope to find a growing lower class beneath them.
Just as we were and are determined to carry democracy to the rest of the world, the Soviets were determined to spread communism. Unfortunately, smaller and often desperate countries were trapped between the two Cold War-ring giants and suffered the consequences. Much of eastern Europe, a good portion of Central and South America, Korea, Vietnam, and much of southeast Asia were at some point battlefields of the Cold War.
The theory held following WWII and embraced by the American military and intelligence organizations until after the fall of Saigon in the 1975 was that the Soviet introduction of communism into a region would have a 'domino effect.' Like a line of dominos on end, one after the other would fall --- in this case to communism --- until at last the US would find itself alone fighting the horrors of communism. The Cold War became an inferno after the communist revolution in Cuba brought the 'red' threat uncomfortably close to American shores. Bomb shelters became big business, fear-mongering was the occupation of the day for every politician hoping to weasel his way into office, and we were told communism MUST be stopped on every front. The front at the time was southeast Asia.
As is usually the case, theory differed significantly from fact. Saigon fell, we fled Vietnam, and the US --- not surprisingly --- remained free from communism. In the 1990s as Russia was opened again to westerners, even to tourists, we found we had spent trillions of dollars fighting and taught school children to fear (in 1963 as a 3rd grader I was taught to hide under my desk as protection from 'the bomb') a country who could rarely feed its citizens... having spent its limited resources fighting the US --- always on forgien soil.
Simple --- if such things exist simply --- economics and politics made enemies of the US and Soviet Russia following WWII. Take care in choosing a history of this period to read for a more in-depth answer to your question. The victor not only gathers the spoils but also writes the history. As a graduate student in 1987 I was amazed to find myself in a history class with 19 young and eager students all of whom, to the professor's disgust, believed we won the war in Vietnam. The history of the Cold War is complex and unfortunately unflattering to both sides. Tread with care --- but with enthusiasm! We are doomed to repeat those mistakes from which we have learned nothing. Have fun.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 11:42 AM
 
43,401 posts, read 47,342,340 times
Reputation: 13832
Russia had completely different plans for the occuppied countries than the other allies. Look at the difference i what they actully did to those who they occuppied that is evben evident now.Socialism and communism is nothig more than a elite centrally control econmy much like ahitler had with the national socialist governament he ran.It deepnds on makig people reliant on the elites decisions for what they achieve.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,153,378 times
Reputation: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359 View Post

I think though that there was a certain inevitability to the Cold War that didn't have to do with ideology. What it had to do with was that two great powers were stepping into a huge power vacuum that occurred at the end of World War II.

*

So, by default and by virtue of their winning World War II, the USA and USSR became the great powers in the world.

Excuse my editing down of your post... but I wanted to expound on your vacuum point.


This vacuum was first created by WW1 which destroyed the great monarchies of Europe.

Rasputin had warned Russia's Tsar that a war with Germany would destroy the monarchy.

While the British royal family survived, it changed its German name to Windsor.

After WW2 [which was just a continuation of WW1] and the defeat of Hitler, the two
emerging superpowers, the USA and Soviet Russia, stepped in to fill the void.

First the communist east imploded... and now the capitalist west seems to be imploding.

Who will fill the void this time around ?



~
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-14-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
4,768 posts, read 2,252,679 times
Reputation: 1698
Bitter battles with those pushing the "Red" ideology began in the United States almost as soon as the political-economic theory was proposed by Marx and other European socialists. America like Europe was rapidly industrializing and had the same social dislocations that unbanization, the rise of large groups of workers and concentration of wealth cause. Socialism was in part home grown and in part came with the large numbers of immigrants from places like Britain, ,central Europe and eastern Europe. In America some of the battles between miners, railroad workers and iron and steel workers are legendary (The Homestead Strike or Pullman Strike comes to mind). What we got out of it was people like Samuel Gompers, the Grangers and the Progressive Political Movement. We also got anti-red hysteria, Red scares, and acusations of Un-Americanism. These fed into the background of nativism, xenophobia and racism that has always been in our nation. So the polarization between Americans over challenge of the Red menace existed in America before the Russian Revolution of 1917 and the rise of the USSR by 1923. If anything these events provided a foil for anti-red hysteria as evidenced by the Palmer Raids and the Sacco and Venzetti Trials in the 1920s.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $89,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > History
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top