SS Unit Generals Vs Wehrmacht Generals (war, Hitler, biggest, crimes)

[Six Foot Three]

I've always read about the German SS Units fighting along side the Werhmacht in Russia and against the Allies in Western Europe etc. and so i was wondering who were their top battle generals. Were they as competent as the Werhmacht battle generals??

[odanny]

Thats an excellent question. I would say the answer is not an easy one to make if asking which were "better", the answer subjective on most levels. As far as combat commanders of the SS, Gen. Paul Hausser was the senior most Waffen SS commander of the war and would have to be rated near the very top of any list for combat Generals, his retaking of Kharkov could be considered the finest military accomplishment of the entire doomed invasion of the Soviet Union, but as far as tacticians are concerned, these were superior in the Wehrmacht, with the likes of pioneers in warfare like Guderian or tacticians like Manstein.

[Six Foot Three]

Originally Posted by odanny

Thats an excellent question. I would say the answer is not an easy one to make if asking which were "better", the answer subjective on most levels. As far as combat commanders of the SS, Gen. Paul Hausser was the senior most Waffen SS commander of the war and would have to be rated near the very top of any list for combat Generals, his retaking of Kharkov could be considered the finest military accomplishment of the entire doomed invasion of the Soviet Union, but as far as tacticians are concerned, these were superior in the Wehrmacht, with the likes of pioneers in warfare like Guderian or tacticians like Manstein.

Odanny, thanks for the info about Gen Hausser as that was excellent .

[odanny]

It's interesting to note that Hausser disobeyed a direct order from Hitler to abandon Kharkov when Hitler ordered another one of his suicidal commands to not retreat one inch. After he retreated from Kharkov he pulled off a brilliant encirclement of the newly liberated city bhy the Red Army and retook it from them, and Hitler, in his typical juvenile response, refused to congratulate or even acknowledge the great military victory under Hausser's command. That battle has been called by author and historian George Nipe as "The Last Victory In Russia" as his extremely detailed book on this battle is called

For his services in Russia, Hausser was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross in 1941 and the Oak Leaves in 1943 (he was to get the Swords for his services in Normandy) and was severely wounded, losing an eye. After recovering he commanded the newly formed SS-Panzer Corps (renamed II SS Panzer Corps in June 1943) and against Hitler's explicit orders withdrew his troops from Kharkov to avoid encirclement, only to recapture the city in March 1943. He led 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS divisions during the Battle of Kursk. After Kursk, his Corps was reformed (substituting the 1st, 2nd and 3rd SS Panzer Divisions with the 9th and 10th SS divisions) and sent to Italy, than to France where he commanded them in the early stages of the Normandy Campaign. After the death of Friedrich Dollmann (commander of the Seventh Army), Hausser was promoted to the command of Seventh Army. During the Falaise encirclement, Hausser remained with his troops until he was wounded (shot through the jaw). Paul Hausser was promoted to Oberstgruppenführer or Colonel General of the Waffen-SS in August 1944 and subsequently commanded Army Group G from 28 January to 3 April 1945. He ended the war on Generalfeldmarschall Albert Kesselring's staff. At the Nuremberg Trials he vigorously defended the military role of the Waffen-SS and denied that it was heavily involved in war-crime atrocities.

[TonyT]

If you posed your question to most any Wehrmacht general or field marshal before the war broke out, the overwhelming response would be that the Wehrmacht possessed superior grade officers to the Waffen SS. The High Command found the Waffen SS training methods to be too informal because it didn't follow the Wehrmacht model of a strict separation between officers and their men. Officer candidates for the Waffen SS went through basic training right along side the men they would eventually lead. Becoming an officer in the Waffen SS was open to anyone regardless of their social status or level of education. Prior to 1938, just over 40% of officer candidates for the Waffen SS possessed no more than an elementary school education. This led to a situation where the professional quality of Waffen SS officers was definitely not on the same level of their Wehrmacht counterparts. But most importantly, the High Command found the strong ideological component of Waffen SS officer/soldier training far too fanatical for their taste.

When former Reichswehr lieutenant general Paul Hausser took command of the SS Junkerschule at Bad Tolz, he set about turning the Waffen SS into a truly professional military force. Physical fitness was emphasized. Sports activities, etc., were made part of the training process, whereas in the Wehrmacht such things were relegated to off duty time. The training that Waffen SS troops initially received was similar in nature to that of U.S. Army Rangers, giving the organization a good core to build around as it expanded during the war. The biggest drawback was that because of High Command suspicion of this new paramilitary force the SS was building, the High Command was able to place restrictions on the number of officers the Waffen SS could train. Due to this, as the Waffen SS expanded, the output of the SS officer schools was never able to keep pace with the demand. During the war, this became a serious problem as the type of aggressive training that SS officers received was reflected in higher then average casualties in their ranks. Lastly, while it was viewed as an elite force, contrary to popular belief the Waffen SS never received the best weapons and equipment during the entirety of the war.

Though the Waffen SS had their own officers and ultimately answered to Hitler via Heinrich Himmler, the fact remained that while in combat they were almost always subordinated to the Wehrmacht and OKW control. The Wehrmacht generals were highly critical of the Waffen SS for their penchant for losing large numbers of men just to gain or hold an objective. Yet this very quality caused the Wehrmacht to throw Waffen SS units into situations where this was likely to happen in order to spare their own troops. The success of the Waffen SS at the Third Battle of Kharkov was what prompted Hitler to use these forces for more complex and intense missions, not only because they were effective in combat, but because he considered them unquestioningly loyal to him. Unfortunately for the Waffen SS, what they were being asked to do eventually reached into the realm of the impossible.

As for some of the top generals of the Waffen SS, besides Paul Hausser, whom Odanny has already highlighted, a few come to mind, one being the following:

Josef "Sepp" Dietrich: Sepp Dietrich started his military career as a crewman in one of the first German tanks that saw action during the First World War. After the war, he, like many former soldiers, joined the Freikorps which were essentially private armies that fought against the Communists trying to bring revolution to Germany. He joined the Nazi Party in 1928 and became one of Hitler's personal bodyguards. At Hitler's request, he organized an elite security force known as SS Watch Battalion-Berlin, which later evolved into the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. In his capacity as Hitler's chief of security, Dietrich took part in the "Night of the Long Knives", the purge of the SA leadership in 1934. Also in 1934, Dietrich was made a general or Obergruppenfuehrer.

Due to his prior military experience, Dietrich was actually highly regarded among many in the Wehrmacht, especially General Werner von Fritsch, from whom he received war strategy training. As war grew inevitable, Dietrich focused on turning the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler into a combat unit. With Dietrich in command, Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler took part in the invasion of France and played a major role in the entrapment of Allied troops at Dunkirk. For this action Dietrich was awarded the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, which he received from Hitler personally. Enlarged to brigade strength, the Leibstandarte was in action in Yugoslavia, Greece and Russia. Well liked by his men, Dietrich made it a point to learn the names of every man under his command. Though a loyal SS soldier, Dietrich was not known to hold particularly extreme views. He had no use or respect for Heinrich Himmler and twice complained personally to Hitler about the harsh treatment of the Jews.

During the Wehrmacht's retreat across Russia, Dietrich saved his troops from complete destruction no less then seven times. Of Sepp Dietrich it was said "A natural frontline soldier, he knew how to extricate his troops even in the worst of battle situations and redeploy them swiftly for a deadly counterattack". Dietrich played a role in Operation Oak, the Otto Skorzeny led mission to locate and free Benito Mussolini from captivity. He led the First SS Panzer Division during the invasion of Normandy and became frustrated with Hitler during this period for the Fuehrer's unwillingness to allow retreat of German forces to ground more favorable for fighting. Dietrich was given command of the 6th SS Panzer Army during the Ardennes Offensive and tasked with capturing Antwerp, an objective that of course he did not reach.

Dietrich's 6th Panzer Army played an integral part in the failed attempt to retake Budapest, Operation Spring Awakening. The inability to take back Budapest was viewed by Hitler as a sign that neither Dietrich or more importantly, the Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler fought as aggressively as they should. This led to the issuance of the so called "armband order", by which Hitler decreed that all troops involved in the battle must remove the "Adolf Hitler" insignia from their uniform sleeves as a sign of disgrace. Dietrich refused to convey this order to his troops. The last action seen by Dietrich and his 6th Panzer Army was in April 1945 when it attempted to defend and hold Vienna against the advancing Russians. Sepp Dietrich surrendered himself and his army to American forces on May 8, 1945.

Dietrich was put on trial for being complicit in the massacre at Malmedy during the Ardennes Offensive. Though he could not be linked to it directly, Joachim Peiper, who's troops committed the atrocity, was attached to Dietrich's 6th Panzer Army. This fact alone was enough so Sepp Dietrich was sentenced to life imprisonment. Several high ranking former Wehrmacht officers, chief among them Field Marshal Heinz Guderian and General Hans Spiedel, lobbied on Dietrich's behalf and his sentence was reduced to 25 years, but he was released on parole in 1955 after serving 10 years. In 1956 he was arrested by German authorities and charged with his role in the "Night of the Long Knives" and received a nineteen month sentence. Upon his release in 1958, he spent the rest of his life involved in the "Mutual Help Association of Former Waffen-SS Members". Sepp Dietrich died in 1966.

[TonyT]

Another SS general of note would be Kurt "Panzer" Meyer.

When he first finished his education, Kurt Meyer worked various manual labor jobs until he finally decided to try his hand at being a policeman, serving as such from 1929 until 1931. In October 1931, Meyer joined the SS and was commissioned as an officer in 1932. In 1934 he was posted to the SS Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. He was promoted to Obersturmfuhrer in 1936 and placed in command of the Leibstandarte's anti-tank company. When the Germans rolled into Poland in 1939, Meyer and his anti-tank company were in action. Meyer was wounded and received the Iron Cross Second Class. Just prior to the invasion of France, Meyer received command of the Leibstandarte's motorcycle reconnaisance company, a task he enjoyed far more then his previous command. Meyer went on to win the Iron Cross First Class while in France and was promoted to Sturmbannfuhrer or Major.

From France, his company, now expanded to a battalion, was sent to the Balkans. On April 13, 1941, Meyer's battalion was ordered to assault and take the Kleisoura Pass in southern Albania, continue on to Lake Kastoria, and cut off the Greek forces concentrated in the town of Kastoria. The initial attack was blunted quickly by the Greeks entrenched along the flanks of the pass. Meyer then split his battalion into three assault groups and renewed the attack, personally leading the center group into the pass. When his troops were slow to break cover and advance on the enemy positions, he threw a hand grenade behind them to move them forward. This prodding did the trick and the pass was soon in Meyer's hands. The battalion continued it's progress and on April 16, Meyer took the town of Kastoria and over 1,100 Greek prisoners. This achievement earned Kurt Meyer the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross.

Meyer's battalion was next attached to Army Group South during the initial stages of Operation Barbarossa in 1941. His battalion was instrumental in capturing the Black Sea city of Mariupol, and he was awarded the German Cross in Gold for bravery. In 1943, Meyer and his men were deeply involved in Paul Hausser's operation to retake Kharkov. His role in the brutal fighting that drove the Russians out of the city earned Meyer the Oak Leaves for his Knight's Cross.

In the summer of 1943, the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" was created by the order of Adolf Hitler. Meyer was promoted to Colonel and given command of SS Panzergrenadier Regiment 25. The 12th SS Panzer was thrown into battle when the Allies landed at Normandy and were involved in heavy defensive action and counterattacks. Meyer's Panzergrenadiers were the first unit to make contact with Canadian troops as they advanced on Caen on June 7, 1944. Shortly after, the commander of the 12th SS, Fritz Witt, was killed and Meyer temporarily took command. During this time, the 12th Panzer was involved in committing war crimes against Canadian troops; specifically, shooting soldiers that were attempting to surrender and executing prisoners of war. Meyer's "Hitlerjugend" division was withdrawn from battle on July 11, 1941, having suffered a staggering 60% loss of men in four weeks time. On August 27, 1944, Kurt Meyer was awarded the Swords for his Knight's Cross. Five days later, at the age of 33, he was promoted to Generalmajor, becoming the youngest divisional commander serving in the German armed forces.

On September 6, 1944, Meyer was leading his men in a withdrawal into Belgium when he was captured by Resistance fighters. He was placed in the custody of American forces and held prisoner by them until December of 1945 when he was turned over to the Canadians and put on trial for war crimes. On December 28, 1945, Kurt Meyer was convicted and sentenced to death. However, in January 1946, the sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. After serving only nine years of his life sentence, Meyer was released. He, like Sepp Dietrich, became heavily involved in the "Mutual Help Association of Former Waffen-SS Members". He wrote his memoirs, "Grenadiers", which were then published in 1957. Kurt "Panzer" Meyer died on his 51st birthday, December 23, 1961.

[odanny]

Meyer was stained with the blood of warcrimes on his record for the killings of Canadians captured after D-Dy by his Hitlerjugend, and Sepp Dietrich was a former enlisted man that was known for being brash, uncouth, and foul mouthed. In fact if you wanted to know about the divide that existed between SS Generals and Wehrmacht Generals, there is no better representative than Sepp Dietrich. He was a world removed from the Wehrmact aristocracy that often came from blue blood Prussian backgrounds and had generations before them who served someone, be they a Kaiser or King.

Also interesting to note the lack of remorse any of these men shared after the war (and after they served jail time and escaped execution for war crimes, men like Peiper, Meyer, Dietrich, etc...)

Of course,many who served under them were not so lucky, and were buried in a shallow grave somewhere in Russia

[TonyT]

Originally Posted by odanny

Meyer was stained with the blood of warcrimes on his record for the killings of Canadians captured after D-Dy by his Hitlerjugend, and Sepp Dietrich was a former enlisted man that was known for being brash, uncouth, and foul mouthed. In fact if you wanted to know about the divide that existed between SS Generals and Wehrmacht Generals, there is no better representative than Sepp Dietrich. He was a world removed from the Wehrmact aristocracy that often came from blue blood Prussian backgrounds and had generations before them who served someone, be they a Kaiser or King.

Also interesting to note the lack of remorse any of these men shared after the war (and after they served jail time and escaped execution for war crimes, men like Peiper, Meyer, Dietrich, etc...)

Of course,many who served under them were not so lucky, and were buried in a shallow grave somewhere in Russia

Well...yes. In both of my posts I did make mention of the fact that Dietrich and Meyer were charged and convicted of war crimes. It is doubtful that any individual serving in a command position in the Waffen-SS during the war couldn't be or wasn't linked to war crimes in some way, shape, or form. None of these men were angels by any stretch of the imagination. Then again, they weren't expected to be. These men were not steeped in the tradition of gentlemanly warfare that their Wehrmacht brethren were. And that was purposeful. Adolf Hitler despised the old line Prussian military cadres that dominated the Wehrmacht and felt that in many ways they were to blame for Germany's defeat in the First World War. But he couldn't fight the war without them.

When the decision was made to turn the Waffen-SS into a combat entity, the formalities and niceties part of the training were skipped over. The emphasis instead was placed on waging total war, regardless of cost or consequences. Their loyalty was to the Party and their mission was to do whatever their Fuehrer demanded of them. And each time they did it with fanatical vengeance. So when you hear about how the "Der Fuehrer" Regiment of the "Das Reich" Division entered Russia in June 1941 with 2,000 men and by October 1941 only 35 remained, it shouldn't come as a surprise. It is also not hard to believe that the 17 year olds of the "Hitlerjugend" Division, who grew up completey immersed in Party propaganda, would fight as they did and commit the atrocities they did.

As for Sepp Dietrich, he is an excellent example of the differences between the Wehrmacht and the Waffen-SS and epitomized the type of soldier the Waffen-SS sought out. He may not have been the most refined of men, but that was of no consequence to Hitler. If anything, it was likely viewed as a plus. All that mattered is that he got results when others, such as his counterparts in the Wehrmacht, couldn't. Maybe he wasn't suited for the Wehrmacht, but there was obviously something about the man that caught the attention and earned the respect of people within the Wehrmacht. If someone of the caliber of Werner von Fritsch takes the time to give you personal lessons on war strategy, and no less then Heinz Guderian comes to your defense when you're facing a life sentence for war crimes, you must have done something right.

[LLN]

Not so much in relation to generals, but a MAJOR reason the SS units fared so well in combat, and were so needed on, in particular, the eastern front, was that they received huge preference in regard to both equipment and replacement soldiers.

Not to demean their fighting ability one bit, but Wermacht commands lusted after having an SS corps attached since they new it would be much closer to fully outfitted than a corresponding Wermacht corps.

lln

[cpg35223]

Well, another thought to consider about the SS's vaunted fighting abilities. If I understand correctly, captured SS soldiers on the Eastern front were almost always executed immediately by the Soviets, whereas Wehrmacht soldiers at least had a reasonable chance of surviving capture--albeit in a Siberian labor camp. So the SS were ferocious in combat, partly because their choices were to either prevail or die.