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Old 09-09-2010, 07:35 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,123 posts, read 2,312,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny View Post
I always found it interesting the Cherokee language was easy to understand and that, because of this simplicity, almost all of the tribe was literate. The Cherokee were likely the most advanced, from a European perspective, of all the tribes, with a government based on the U.S. model.
With all due respect, you may want to re-examine your sources. Though the Cherokee were, and are, a fine people, they were by no means the only American Indian nation to have an "advanced" government, whether or not they were "based on the U.S. model".

As a point of fact, considering the timelines involved, it would probably be a better claim that the "U.S. model" was based on the American Indian forms of government. Note that I do not make such a claim, but I do insist that one examine, from a historical perspective, which came first...
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:07 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,480,061 times
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Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
This was stated by several including Phil Sheridan, George Armstrong Custer, Marcus Reno, George Crook, and more.

All of whom stood to benefit by extolling the martial virtues of the Plains Indians. And none of whom had the wide experience of European cavalry. And Reno? Had Reno been a good cavalryman he would've charged right into the Indian town on the Little Big Horn rather than stop and dismount. And had Custer still been a good cavalryman the 7th would've still had their sabers. The 7th was reduced to mere mounted infantry.

Tell me; do you think 700 Plains Indians would've carried the Russian guns at Balaclava as the Light Brigade did? I don't think Indians would even have approached them. Their mode of warfare was well suited to their particular time and place (for awhile anyway) but as a military force they were not up to the standards of Steppe herdsmen or European cavalry.

Regards

Last edited by Irishtom29; 09-09-2010 at 08:41 PM..
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:34 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,123 posts, read 2,312,216 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
All of whom stood to benefit by extolling the martial virtues of the Plains Indians. And none of whom had the wide experience of European cavalry. And Reno? Had Reno been a true cavalryman he would've charged right into the Indian town on the Little Big Horn rather than stop and dismount. And had Custer still been a good cavalryman the 7th would've still had their sabers. The 7th was reduced to mere mounted infantry.

Tell me; do you think 700 Plains Indians would've carried the Russian guns at Balaclava as the Light Brigade did? I don't think Indians would even have approached them. Their mode of warfare was well suited to their particular time and place (for awhile anyway) but as a military force they were not up to the standards of Steppe herdsmen much less European cavalry.

Regards
IrishTom,

I see that we are at loggerheads here. I agree that Indians would never have approached the Russian guns -- they were far too independent for that type of tactic (a fact that I believe you may understand). I still disagree with your position, but from our mutual vantage point of some 100+ years after the facts, there's no way we're ever likely to resolve the issue.

Unless, that is, you've managed to perfect a time machine and have been keeping said accomplishment under wraps...?

Regards,

-- Nighteyes
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:43 PM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,480,061 times
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Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
IrishTom,

I see that we are at loggerheads here. I agree that Indians would never have approached the Russian guns -- they were far too independent for that type of tactic (a fact that I believe you may understand). I still disagree with your position, but from our mutual vantage point of some 100+ years after the facts, there's no way we're ever likely to resolve the issue.

Fair enough.
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:05 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
12,013 posts, read 6,107,928 times
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Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
With all due respect, you may want to re-examine your sources. Though the Cherokee were, and are, a fine people, they were by no means the only American Indian nation to have an "advanced" government, whether or not they were "based on the U.S. model".

As a point of fact, considering the timelines involved, it would probably be a better claim that the "U.S. model" was based on the American Indian forms of government. Note that I do not make such a claim, but I do insist that one examine, from a historical perspective, which came first...

So what tribe would you say was more advanced than the Cherokee, at least from an Anglo-Saxon point of view? Which other tribe successfully petitioned the United States Supreme Court?
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Old 09-10-2010, 10:06 AM
 
2,672 posts, read 1,572,167 times
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Originally Posted by odanny View Post
So what tribe would you say was more advanced than the Cherokee, at least from an Anglo-Saxon point of view? Which other tribe successfully petitioned the United States Supreme Court?

May I suggest a book that would help you understand that there were many tribes that lived an advanced culture? This book will also provide history in the early years of the European immigration.

My tribe, the Mvskoke, (Muscogee Creek) had a representative government with established towns. From a ruling standpoint we were much more advanced than the europeans who were immigrating to this continent. Our system worked, and we didn't need to be taught how to farm. Harvest was a part of our traditions as it was with many of the NE, and SE tribes. We had war towns (Red towns) and peace towns(White towns).

"American Indian Tribal Governments"; Sharon O'Brian

The best book on the Mvskoke (Muscogee, aka Creek) is:
"The Road to Disappearance": Angie Debo

Another good one:
"And Still the Waters Run" Angie Debo

If you're interested in later history this is a must:

On the Nez Perce battle against General Cook:

"I will Fight No more Forever"
(I absolutely love Chief Joseph, and even General Cook thought he was a genius) I make this suggestion just because I love Chief Joseph, and honor his ability to come so close to gaining freedom for the Nez Perce. I mean, they were just a small group of people fighting the biggest power in the world. THis was in the winter and in the Bitteroot Mountains. They were children, old men and old women. And they came within 10 miles of escape to Canada before General Cook finally captured them.

Tho I'm Mvskoke, I've lived on Northern Cheyenne rez and attended school there for a short while. I also lived one summer in Missoula, which is not far from the Nez Perce.


There are many good posts on this thread. Nighteyes, thank you for the accurate information.

Just a couple of things to keep in mind about the indigenous of America are that there are still nearly 600 tribes that are 'federally recognized'. Some may have similar culturals, but each are distinct. There are more tribes that still know and practice their culture than those who have lost it. We're still here!!!!!!!!! Yes, we have a history, but we are not ONLY history. We're still here.
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Old 09-10-2010, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
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Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
The Plains Cultures, including the Arapaho, Assiniboine, Cheyenne, Comanche, Kiowa, Lakota and others were generally considered to be "the finest light cavalry in the world". The last time I checked, the Polish Hussars were light cavalry and Poland was part of planet Earth.
It would be impossible to make an unqualified judgement on this. 'generally considered' means nothing. Even if you could manipulate time to pit these cultures against one another it would be apples vs. oranges. You could break it down and make a case for say, the Comanche having the best bare back handling skills or the Mongols having the best mounted archery skills or the Poles having the best small formation skirmishing skills but even then you would be relying on a lot of guesswork.

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Originally Posted by tinynot View Post
Well, I can't speak or Isleta but when I visited Taos Pueblo I found adobe huts with brand new diesel Dodges sitting next to them with propane tanks on back and the cooking was done on propane cookers.
Yeah, Taos pueblo is unique in that they have some of the oldest continuously inhabited buildings in the States. However, most Puebloans (including those of Taos) live in normal housing (for New Mexico) with electricity and gas and whatnot. They just want to preserve their older housing.
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Old 09-10-2010, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Saturn
1,519 posts, read 899,619 times
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Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
This is perhaps somewhat outside the scope of this forum, but I can't think of where it fits better.

It occurred to me that my answer to this question would have to be "not much".

I've only met two Native Americans that I had the opportunity to really talk to about their culture. Both were in Montana, both were frank and outgoing, and I talked for several hours, one on one, with each of them about their Indian culture and how it influenced their lives. Few conversations I've ever had have been so enriching to me.

I also had a good friend, who lived on a reservation. We went to ball games together, but only a few times tangentially did he ever talk about life as an Indian, and I never asked.

I feel that I should know more than I do about the lives and cultures of these people, who live among us and at the same time, apart. I've picked up quite a few Indian hitchhikers, but mostly, they are pretty taciturn. Reading novels by people like Louise Erdrich helps, but not much.
Like you, I would dearly love to know more about the Native American culture.

I have a very good friend who lives in the Tn near the Smoky Mountains and he is of Native American ethnicity.

Fascinating listening to him and his family talk about their history.

I am currently trying to get more reading material about the Native American people.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:41 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
12,013 posts, read 6,107,928 times
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Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post

Tell me; do you think 700 Plains Indians would've carried the Russian guns at Balaclava as the Light Brigade did? I don't think Indians would even have approached them. Their mode of warfare was well suited to their particular time and place (for awhile anyway) but as a military force they were not up to the standards of Steppe herdsmen or European cavalry.

Regards
Which further shows the advancement of Native American culture over it's European counterpart, unfortunately, the Europeans who came ashore had larger guns and more horses. The wars and the broken government agreements and contracts, the "white mans way" would ultimately mean the end of these cultures. How many children were sent off to church to learn English and Christianity? They had a religion and a means of support and did not slaughter huge herds of bison for target practice, seems the advanced culture lost out to superior brutality and firepower
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:01 AM
 
Location: St. Augustine
9,258 posts, read 11,480,061 times
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Originally Posted by odanny View Post
Which further shows the advancement of Native American culture over it's European counterpart, unfortunately, the Europeans who came ashore had larger guns and more horses.

Indians were just as violent as Europeans and Asians, they just weren't as good at it.
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