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Old 12-26-2010, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,541,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
Speaking of pogroms: those which occurred under the last two czars qualify as genocide, and a very bloody one at that, given that there was a deliberate attempt to kill one third of the Jewish population of the Russian Empire. (Another third was to be converted and the remaining third was to be expelled.)
Religious transformation of Jews (for permission about a residence) - the Law in the Russian empire.
For prevention of ritual murders which Jews in a management of their native religion did.
Removal of Jews. The law in Russian kingdom and Empire.
Because the Jewish dealers deceived fair dealers.
Any "genocides" wasn't. Though now not the secret , a christening of Russia was made by the rabbi. Have been thus killed 5 of 6 persons and one is transformed. "The bloody rabbi" or "bloody cruisader ".

Last edited by eloy; 12-26-2010 at 01:41 PM..
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Old 12-26-2010, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Not all Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal went to Muslim lands, remember those who settled in the Netherlands - I'm thinking of the family of the philosopher Baruch Spinoza, and those Jewish friends the sublime master Rembrandt Van Rijn cultivated such friends as Rabbi Manasseh Ben Israel and Rabbi Ephraim Bueno. Rembrandt had a great affinity and affection for Jews, bought a fine townhouse on the edge of the Jewish Quarter near several synagogues, and created beautiful etchings to illustrate published books authored by his Rabbinic friends. Not to mention the Jewish themes of so many of his great paintings such as "The Jewish Bride."
Italy also got a considerable number of Sephardic immigrants - even more than the Netherlands- to the point that they outnumbered the "Italian Jews" (Jews whose roots in Italy dated back to Roman times).
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,772,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Park View Post
Not all Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal went to Muslim lands,
Of course not. Many survived, but there was a catastrophic loss of life, as they were easy pickings and were denied refuge everywhere, and few were willing to protect them. Many who fled Spain went to Portugal, who then had an inquisition of their own five years later, with brutal treatment for those who "converted" to Christianity, but were accused of retaining Jewish practices. But Sarajevo and Salonika, then in Muslim held territory, were notable for their charity, in allowing any arriving Jew safety and relative freedom. The Muslims had granted the Jews peace and harmony in Moorish Spain, which officially turned over its last bastion at Granada in, coincidentally, 1492. A sad year, as Queen Isabella scored a hat trick: The end of any hope of any vestige of Muslim civility in Spain, the end of Jews in Spain, and the first glimmer of the centuries of rape of the New World and everything not Christian.

Last edited by jtur88; 12-26-2010 at 06:15 PM..
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,032,368 times
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How come the Taiping Rebellion of 1850-1864 doesn't qualify for the list of nominees? The continuous chaos of 14 straight years of slaughter generated refugee displacement, famine and plague, which resulted in 20 million dead. Both sides freely practiced agricultural genocide policies. Not content to merely capture or drive away the local populations, they also burned all the structures and crops, killed all the farm animals and either flooded or salted the land.

Among the 11 nominated atrocities at the start of the thread, only Mao and Stalin can claim to be in the twenty million plus class, so there must be room for Taiping.
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Old 12-26-2010, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Of course not. Many survived, but there was a catastrophic loss of life, as they were easy pickings and were denied refuge everywhere, and few were willing to protect them. Many who fled Spain went to Portugal, who then had an inquisition of their own five years later, with brutal treatment for those who "converted" to Christianity, but were accused of retaining Jewish practices.
There was no expulsion in Portugal. All Jews were instantly declared to be converted. Obviously some didn't go along and were persecuted by the Portuguese inquisition.
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Old 12-26-2010, 07:26 PM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloy View Post
Religious transformation of Jews (for permission about a residence) - the Law in the Russian empire.
For prevention of ritual murders which Jews in a management of their native religion did.
There was never a single documented "Jewish ritual murder".

You have to remember the Russian mentality at the time. Russia under the czars was like a Christian Saudi Arabia. The "third Rome" mentality was dominant. Russia's identity was bound up in Orthodox Christianity and in opposition to Islam, Catholicism, and Judaism.

Quote:
Removal of Jews. The law in Russian kingdom and Empire.
Because the Jewish dealers deceived fair dealers.
Can't speak for Russia, but the Jewish money lenders in Western and Central Europe were hated because they gave better deals than the Christian money lenders. Usury being prohibited didn't mean that other Europeans didn't do it any more than western societies' prohibition of drugs means that no drug dealing or using go on in western societies.

The Jews were the competition who didn't have political connections like the black market money lenders did, and were an economic threat to them, so they were scapegoated and targeted for violence.

Quote:
Any "genocides" wasn't.
Grand Duke Michael's proposal of systematic extermination of the Jews (the first time in history that idea ever appeared) was discarded in favor of a strategy of "thirds". Kill one third, convert one third (the higher classes of Jews), and drive another third out of the Russian Empire, to the Americas and Western Europe.

The term "genocide" was not in use at the beginning of the 20th century but the severity of the pogroms in the Russian Empire's last 35 plus years would count as a genocide today. Then-US President Teddy Roosevelt harshly condemned them and tried to take measures to stop the pogroms by putting pressure on the Russians, but to no avail.

By current international law the pogroms under the last two czars would be a genocide.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:11 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,772,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
There was no expulsion in Portugal. All Jews were instantly declared to be converted. Obviously some didn't go along and were persecuted by the Portuguese inquisition.
They were "forcibly converted", and the autos da fe targeted those whose practice of Catholicism was deemed not sufficiently thorough. Jews were a great majority of those singled out, and people with catholic ancestors were pretty much left unquestioned. It was clearly a form of Jewish persecution, and my original remarks were not mean to place a comparable culpability on Portugal as that of Spain, but only to show that Portugal did not turn out to be a safe haven for expelled Spanish Jews.
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Old 12-27-2010, 04:53 AM
 
2,226 posts, read 5,096,947 times
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Most Jewish converts STAYED in Spain and many returned a few years later.

That's why in Spain you have cities that descend mostly from converts such as Palma de Mallorca. History speaks about those that suffered Autos de Fe, but not about the ones that stayed. By the way, most confidents of the Inquisition were converts, and they stayed. History speaks about the Inquisition in big cities, but not about little towns and cities were Converts took refuge, or about the absence of Inquisition in Northern Spain or New Castille, or the many regions were converts never suffered persecution.

It was totally impossible to expel Jewish Converts because the Great Inquisitor Torquemada was a CONVERT, the grandfather of King Ferdinand was a Jewish banker, Santa Teresa de Jesus was a convert, Fray Luis de Leon, Gongora and el CONDE DUQUE DE OLIVARES were converts and most of the Spanish nobility has convert blood because they were broke and married rich converts. Queen Isabella had "clean blood" because she came from English and French lineages.

For example, Gongora, one of the most important Spanish writers ever, was a known convert and nothing happened to him, he only had to suffer the attacks of Quevedo, another famous writer. Quevedo wrote...."I will smear my verses with bacon so you can't copy them".

My grandmother came from converts from Majorca and she had a Jewish last name, SALOM. SALOM is a very common Majorcan last name. There are payload of Jewish last names, now considered Spanish.

So converts are around us, even Franco came from Jewish lineage on his mother side and he was projewish.

Last edited by Manolón; 12-27-2010 at 05:18 AM..
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:39 AM
 
Location: Wheaton, Illinois
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Manolon----As Americans we are a product of Godless Saxon culture and are taught to despise Spain and that no good ever came of it.
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Old 12-27-2010, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,541,089 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
There was never a single documented "Jewish ritual murder".

You have to remember the Russian mentality at the time. Russia under the czars was like a Christian Saudi Arabia. The "third Rome" mentality was dominant. Russia's identity was bound up in Orthodox Christianity and in opposition to Islam, Catholicism, and Judaism.



Can't speak for Russia, but the Jewish money lenders in Western and Central Europe were hated because they gave better deals than the Christian money lenders. Usury being prohibited didn't mean that other Europeans didn't do it any more than western societies' prohibition of drugs means that no drug dealing or using go on in western societies.

The Jews were the competition who didn't have political connections like the black market money lenders did, and were an economic threat to them, so they were scapegoated and targeted for violence.



Grand Duke Michael's proposal of systematic extermination of the Jews (the first time in history that idea ever appeared) was discarded in favor of a strategy of "thirds". Kill one third, convert one third (the higher classes of Jews), and drive another third out of the Russian Empire, to the Americas and Western Europe.

The term "genocide" was not in use at the beginning of the 20th century but the severity of the pogroms in the Russian Empire's last 35 plus years would count as a genocide today. Then-US President Teddy Roosevelt harshly condemned them and tried to take measures to stop the pogroms by putting pressure on the Russians, but to no avail.

By current international law the pogroms under the last two czars would be a genocide.
Probably. At you were good. They your owners . We see them in Bible books. Laws aren't created on a whim. Laws would be created what to warn troubles .
I am not Romanovs and Stalin's admirer. BUT. I should recognize their correct actions. Religious Jews some times tried to win, take in slavery and to plunder the people of the Russian empire.
1) the Christening of Russia (power Capture, destruction of the best people).
2) Hazaria Kaganat (Slavery)
3) Revolution 1917 (the Robbery and destruction)
4) the Disorder 1993 (From Israel there have arrived disguised battalions what to beat people).
At us for a long time it know. It is the fact. Which is written down in books during those old times when politicians were more fair.
Yours "fair dealers" sold the weapon to terrorists, children in slavery, suppress national movements, take out капиталлы, use false charges in "nazism" to receive money from funds , sprech from the TV screen: "you don't exist" , "You are created for suffering" ...
...
I understand the president Bush. He has created "Antisemitic laws". But now a new astrological era. Time of baizes comes to an end.
The problem doesn't consist in struggle against existence. Overcoming of consequences of their propagation - here a problem. There is no time to wait for the second Jesus.

Last edited by eloy; 12-27-2010 at 09:54 AM..
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