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Old 02-24-2011, 09:13 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,123 posts, read 2,325,373 times
Reputation: 3075
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHAdams View Post
What Oswald accomplished on a rifle range has little bearing on the real world. On a rifle range, I have put bullets through the same hole as long as I wanted. While hunting, I miss gigantic elk as often as not when they are moving. I've been hunting a few times and the large majority of hunters suffer from the same problem. Many experienced hunters can't even hit game that is standing still. This is due to nerves, they are shaking with excitement.

Oswald was shooting at a moving target.
Oswald did not have a shooting bench.
Oswald was shooting at a target roughly 30-40 feet (I think he was on the 3rd or 4th floor) lower than him.
Oswald was shooting at the President of the United States....akin to shooting at an elk with a 10 foot antler rack. Nerves kick in at an extraordinary rate. All of the successful POTUS assassinations occurred at almost point blank range.

Kennedy's body received several holes....the fatal shot hit his forehead and mushroomed in a very atypical manner....though typical of professional assassins who inject mercury into the bullet. Oswald would have been very lucky to place one of them.
Were you trained as a Marine Corps rifleman, or as an Army rifleman for that matter? It does make a difference to the discussion.
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Old 02-25-2011, 05:36 AM
 
Location: Texas
14,023 posts, read 9,567,879 times
Reputation: 7393
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHAdams View Post
Kennedy's body received several holes....the fatal shot hit his forehead and mushroomed in a very atypical manner....though typical of professional assassins who inject mercury into the bullet. Oswald would have been very lucky to place one of them.

No, the fatal shot hit him in the back of the head and exited through his forehead. You can actually see his forehead explode on the Zapruder film.

And, if his rifle fired the same bullet mine does (6.5 mm) the actual round is a hunk of copper jacketed lead about half as long as your little finger. I will make a HUGE exit wound.
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Old 02-25-2011, 06:44 AM
 
Location: NJ
7,366 posts, read 4,087,604 times
Reputation: 4755
Default just a thought

58 yards is a close shot. Throw in a moving target and it gets more complicated. State of mind of the shooter is the other big factor at play.
To conclude it was a 'no miss shot' is too much of a leap. That conclusion can caused investigative blindness.

The factor never discussed is buck fever.

It is one thing to shoot at paper targets but when a life form is in your sights it is another matter. I've seen dyed in the wool hunters still mess up 'in your face' shots. When entranced by target rapture before the shot, both eyes are wide open and the focus shifts from a fine hair to the entire animal. It is almost a guarantee that the shot will be high enough to miss. If you tried to replicate that shot to be prepared for another similar situation you could practice all summer and never miss the target no matter how hard you try.

Buck fever is not a malady exclusive to new hunters/shooters. Who knows what LHO was feeling but that has to be a consideration.

Agree that one man's opinion re LHO's marksmanship is almost irrelevant unless it revealed some other significant factor about LHO.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:09 AM
 
6,895 posts, read 9,378,502 times
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I would agree Oswald was a poor shot. Why? He was a marine, trained to hit a moving target at 1,000 feet with one shot, one kill. He failed miserably.

Oswald was aiming at an essentially still target - tango was below him, moving away from him and simply growing smaller, which means he did not need to lead, compensate for windage, or correct for elevation drop, with a scoped rifle at 200 feet. With a 4X sope that is essentially the same as aiming for the side of a barn. It took him 4 shot, one was a total miss, to get the fatal shot in.

Terrible performance for a marine marksman, he was a disgrace. We train our Marines better than that. One shot, one kill.
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:05 AM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,123 posts, read 2,325,373 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
We train our Marines better than that. One shot, one kill.
(In the above quote, bolding added for emphasis.)

Uh, not to put too fine a point on things, but you're describing the Marine Scout Sniper (e.g. Carlos Hathcock), not the rank-and-file Marine rifleman.
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:50 AM
 
6,895 posts, read 9,378,502 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nighteyes View Post
(In the above quote, bolding added for emphasis.)

Uh, not to put too fine a point on things, but you're describing the Marine Scout Sniper (e.g. Carlos Hathcock), not the rank-and-file Marine rifleman.
That was a book title right? Hatchcock wrote a book, or a book about him.

"One shot, one kill" is now a term that is in popular culture and vernacular, not "owned" by one group or another. Whatever your field - police, navy, marine marksman, or assasin - the goal when you are operating in the capacity of a sniper (as opposed to rifleman, assault, or bunkered in defense where "suppressing fire" might be the tactic) is indeed one shot, one kill. The reason is obvious - after one shot you give away your position even if well concealed and you loose the initiative and possibly the target. Oswald didn't get formal intense sniper training, but certainly he bacame familiar with sniper tactics in his Marine training. Oswald followed all the proper sniper tactics - 1.) stalking (finding when and where his tango would appear), 2.) finding his position (concealed, elevated, good target range) , 3.) Preparing his shooting position (support on some sacks to steady his aim, lying somewhat prone, etc, 4.) relocating after the shot.
He left one important thing out - accuracy. That he made the kill after 2 nonfatal hits and a complete miss is more due to luck, fate, and most importantly the fact that it was an easy shot then his marksmanship.

Last edited by Dd714; 02-25-2011 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 02-26-2011, 03:02 PM
 
Location: On a Satellite
21,674 posts, read 12,278,420 times
Reputation: 23158
He had the element of surprise. Probably his greatest weapon.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:00 PM
 
Location: Great white north
87 posts, read 104,727 times
Reputation: 156
texdav;
After 22900 posts could you please learn how to spell check. Thanks, from all of us that read these posts.
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Old 02-27-2011, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Denver
1,788 posts, read 546,696 times
Reputation: 1057
Quote:
Originally Posted by DewDropInn View Post
He had the element of surprise. Probably his greatest weapon.
Oh I think that it was very much anticipated by some people:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY02Qkuc_f8
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Old 02-28-2011, 07:55 AM
 
29,914 posts, read 18,240,927 times
Reputation: 14633
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHAdams View Post
What Oswald accomplished on a rifle range has little bearing on the real world. On a rifle range, I have put bullets through the same hole as long as I wanted. While hunting, I miss gigantic elk as often as not when they are moving. I've been hunting a few times and the large majority of hunters suffer from the same problem. Many experienced hunters can't even hit game that is standing still. This is due to nerves, they are shaking with excitement.

Oswald was shooting at a moving target.
Oswald did not have a shooting bench.
Oswald was shooting at a target roughly 30-40 feet (I think he was on the 3rd or 4th floor) lower than him.
Oswald was shooting at the President of the United States....akin to shooting at an elk with a 10 foot antler rack. Nerves kick in at an extraordinary rate. All of the successful POTUS assassinations occurred at almost point blank range.

Kennedy's body received several holes....the fatal shot hit his forehead and mushroomed in a very atypical manner....though typical of professional assassins who inject mercury into the bullet. Oswald would have been very lucky to place one of them.
When I was 12 I would shoot my .22 and those bullets would mushroom...who knew I had some sort of ninja assassin sneaking into my room at night to inject mercury into my ammunition. Those poor cans and corn cobs never stood a chance.

It's the bizarre, obviously wrong assertions like mercury bullets that adds a lot of white noise to discussions about events like this. At some point it's difficult to separate the BS from the truth.
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