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Old 07-05-2011, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Lincoln County Road or Armageddon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chango View Post

Before that, people marched in lines and got killed because individuality was not a high cultural value back then. Those boys walked to the battlfield ready, willing and fully expecting to die for something bigger than themselves; a personality trait you'd be hardpressed to find in today's American.
Like they had any choice in the matter. It was either fight and take your chances or be flogged and then hung (unless you could buy your way out of the draft).
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:42 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
The outside aspect to all of this is unit cohesion and communication. The American Civil War saw much the same levels of communication as what was available to Napoleon. Certainly the telegraph allowed for rapid communication between the frontlines and major cities and supply bases. However, actual battlefield communication was still done by line of sight using signal flags, drums and bugles.
Off topic comment about telegraphs - Napolean actually had a form of telegraph using chains of semaphore relay stations - so that, for instance, if they saw the english fleet in the channel Napolean would learn about it in Paris in about 30 minutes; or if a battle was lost in Italy he would know about it in a few hours in spite of being hundreds of miles away.

And yes, it's use was strategic, not tactical. Tactically, instructions were mainly communicated and information obtained using runners (flags and buggles too, but the noise of battle or hills or battlefield smoke sometimes obscured the sonic and visual ability of these devices). That really didn't change until radio communication (wired, or unwired) was developed.
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Old 07-05-2011, 12:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
through the war one can see the changes made in tactics as officers sought solutions to their problems. The British army of 1918 was using dispersed offensive infantry tactics using squad machine guns combined with improved artillery, tanks and aircraft used as ground support. A far cry from 1914, no?
A big advance made possible with the more accurate WW1 artillery was the tactic of "advancing fire" in which infantry moved just behind a steadily advancing barrage and could be right on the enemy trench line when the barrage lifted.
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Old 07-05-2011, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Visitation between Wal-Mart & Home Depot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Off topic comment about telegraphs - Napolean actually had a form of telegraph using chains of semaphore relay stations - so that, for instance, if they saw the english fleet in the channel Napolean would learn about it in Paris in about 30 minutes; or if a battle was lost in Italy he would know about it in a few hours in spite of being hundreds of miles away.

And yes, it's use was strategic, not tactical. Tactically, instructions were mainly communicated and information obtained using runners (flags and buggles too, but the noise of battle or hills or battlefield smoke sometimes obscured the sonic and visual ability of these devices). That really didn't change until radio communication (wired, or unwired) was developed.
The Chinese passed very simple messages via smoke signal relay as well.
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Old 07-05-2011, 02:41 PM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
A big advance made possible with the more accurate WW1 artillery was the tactic of "advancing fire" in which infantry moved just behind a steadily advancing barrage and could be right on the enemy trench line when the barrage lifted.

My impression from Keegan is that that never worked all that well, until portable wireless radio sets (to let the artillery know exactly where the infantry had reached) were developed - it being very hard to time the barrage which moved ahead to fast relative to the infantry (and let the machine gunners pop out aftewards) or too slowly (resulting in friendly fire deaths).
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
My impression from Keegan is that that never worked all that well, until portable wireless radio sets (to let the artillery know exactly where the infantry had reached) were developed - it being very hard to time the barrage which moved ahead to fast relative to the infantry (and let the machine gunners pop out aftewards) or too slowly (resulting in friendly fire deaths).
Read up on the victorious Allied advance of 1918; the "creeping barrage" worked well numerous times, especially for the British Army.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,832,165 times
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^^^Agreed but it failed miserably in the earlier battles and that is where Keagan wrote in The Face of Battle referencing the Somme.

BTW, what ever happened to Keagan. Something of the Man in military history for the well educated reader with Mask of Command, Face of Battle, Price of Admiralty, and then???

Last edited by Felix C; 07-06-2011 at 01:21 PM..
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Parts Unknown, Northern California
48,564 posts, read 24,106,504 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix C View Post
^^^Agreed but it failed miserably in the earlier battles and that is where Keagan wrote in The Face of Battle referencing the Somme.

BTW, what ever happened to Keagan. Something of the Man in military history for the well educated reader with Mask of Command, Face of Battle, Price of Admiralty, and then???
Two years ago he damaged his reputation with a very poorly received book devoted to the American Civil War. I bought and read it before seeing any reviews and I was stunned by what a terrible work this was. Keegan's narrative history of the war is riddled with inexcusable factual errors. He has Sterling Price acting on orders from General Grant. He had the Ohio River, as well as the western Tennessee and Georgia geography all screwed up. He had General Scott as 85 years old when the war began. He had Vicksburg located on the wrong bank of the Mississippi. Even some of the photgraphs are misidentified

Apparently edited by junkies to teach the rest of us a vague lesson, the narrative part of the book is incredibly confusing, repetitive and goes in and out of chronological sync. Later I learned the reason for this, that section was pasted together by collecting individual pieces Keegan had written over the years, he just threw them together and called it a narrative.

It was somewhat redeemed by the latter half where Keegan offers analysis of particular battles and the general course of the war, but by then you may have abandoned reading it.

In general, the book was an embarrassment for Keegan, a blow to his previously well earned reputation as a leading scholar of warfare.
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Old 07-06-2011, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
8,087 posts, read 9,832,165 times
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^^^Thanks. Sorry popup indicates I cannot give you reputation at this time. Need to spread to others before it comes back.

Edit: I found it is 25reps need to be given before it can be returned.

Last edited by Felix C; 07-06-2011 at 02:43 PM..
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Old 07-06-2011, 02:25 PM
 
1,020 posts, read 1,711,891 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander View Post
Two years ago he damaged his reputation with a very poorly received book devoted to the American Civil War. I bought and read it before seeing any reviews and I was stunned by what a terrible work this was. Keegan's narrative history of the war is riddled with inexcusable factual errors. He has Sterling Price acting on orders from General Grant. He had the Ohio River, as well as the western Tennessee and Georgia geography all screwed up. He had General Scott as 85 years old when the war began. He had Vicksburg located on the wrong bank of the Mississippi. Even some of the photgraphs are misidentified

Apparently edited by junkies to teach the rest of us a vague lesson, the narrative part of the book is incredibly confusing, repetitive and goes in and out of chronological sync. Later I learned the reason for this, that section was pasted together by collecting individual pieces Keegan had written over the years, he just threw them together and called it a narrative.

It was somewhat redeemed by the latter half where Keegan offers analysis of particular battles and the general course of the war, but by then you may have abandoned reading it.

In general, the book was an embarrassment for Keegan, a blow to his previously well earned reputation as a leading scholar of warfare.
Methinks he should stick to the English Civil War! Actually, I have enjoyed pretty much everything he's written, save this book. I wonder if his publisher thought it would be a good idea, and for a nice check, Keegan complied?
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