Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Just ask yourself one question: Why is Israel, about 3% of the Middle East's land mass, able to prosper when every single surrounding country is essentially internally embattled?
-------
American Jews in the US?
And why surrounding countries are embattled?
Manolon - It is quite a stretch to just blame Israel for Lebanon's problems. The Israelis generally have no problems with the Arab people or peaceful Islam. If you don't believe that, visit Haifa in the north of Israel. For such a diverse place, it hums along in relative harmony only 50 miles or so south of Lebanon. Learn a little about the Lebanese Civil War which went from about 1975 to 1990. There was way more to it than simply the "Arab-Israeli conflict."
There were pre-existing tensions in Lebanon but without the Six Day War, the resulting occupation, and the consequences of the Israelis taking the West Bank the Lebanese Civil War would not have been triggered in the same way.
Without the Six Day War Lebanon would be a prosperous country today. Every time it gets back on its feet it is the victim of Israeli aggression.
There is definitely a link between Israel and the Lebanese war. Israel's intransigence regarding Palestinian concerns forced 300,000 Palestinian refugees into Lebanon, leaving Lebanon with the choice of harboring the Palestinians, or of being guilty of the same kinds of crimes against humanity as the Israelis. Israeli troops attacked Lebanese territory as early as 1968, seven years before the Lebanese civil war.
Had Israel never existed, it is quite likely that Beirut would now be the capital of a progressive and enlightened Arab sphere of advanced nations, and Palestine would be a democratic republic where Muslim and Jewish populations coexisted in peace, much as Muslims and Christians had co-existed in Lebanon for centuries. Muslims have no problem with Jews, they have a problem with Zionism. (The same problem Americans would have with Mexicans who wanted California back, and used international force to get it.)
Without Israel, there would have been nothing to impede the Middle East from advancing as successfully as Southeast Asia. Even in spite of several Israeli wars, a huge influx of refugees, and with no oil or natural resources, Jordan became a dignified and successful nation admired by all her Arab neighbors. The Arabs do have the capacity to construct workable and prosperous states, provided nobody keeps kicking them when they are down.
Without the Six Day War Lebanon would be a prosperous country today. Every time it gets back on its feet it is the victim of Israeli aggression.
And what part of the 1967 war did Lebanon play? It was knocked off of feet by Palestinian aggression by trying to take over the country from the inside. Palestinians aided certain factions militarily which led to civil war. Israel had an incident in 77-78 to resolve which was started from Lebanon by Palestinians & Israel didn't invade far into Lebanon until 1981 (shows what a waste the UN is) to stop the PLO shelling of Israel.
Lebanon would not have been knocked off of its feet if Jordan didn't expel them after Black September.
If you really want to find the root cause of why most of the Arab ME is the way it is, then research the British & French on how they were cutting up the Ottoman Empire post WW1 for their own agenda. And even after WW2 it went back to business as usual for their own gains by installing puppet gov'ts to themselves.
Israel on the other hand has no future in the long run. Just as the Crusaders, they are Europeans in a land that's not theirs.
Then you write this in the very same post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manolón
Arabs from Palestina, Lebanon and Syria have been part of the Roman-Greek-Phoenician Culture during the last 3.000 years.
I take it you are insinuating there is actually an indigenous population specific to the area of modern Palestine and Israel yet you also seem to be aware of the population shifts that have characterized that area since the beginning of history.
Frankly I think its a weak argument that because a large portion of the Jews are of Euro origin they have no say as the "indigenous" population.
So lets look at the historical groups that had that area as their stomping grounds: of course 1st we have the various Canaanite Semitic speaking peoples; then the ancient Egyptians who have used the region for their own commercial and military interests even before the dynastic period; fellow Semitic tribes from Arabia; can't forget about rule of the region held by the empires of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Hellenes, Romans, Byzantines, eastern European Slavic Mamluks and the Ottoman Turks.
Then you also have to take into consideration the numbers of people absorbed into the area's population as slaves, merchants, mercenaries, forced deportations and importations.
Given all this demographic historical baggage, I doubt the vast majority of the people in that region irregardless of religion, can make a solid claim to be a direct descendant of any "indigenous" population.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grandstander
Yeah, and before the Jews arrived it was Canaan, the ancient homeland of the non Hebrew Canaanites who lived there. Whose walls do you think were being knocked down when Josh fit the battle of Jericho? When the Hebrews were done, the Canaanites were reduced to historical footnotes and archeological hunts.
Property claims have always required that they be backed by force
Speaking of claims, since the Canaanites had many colonies in modern Italy, the Iberian peninsula and of course their most famous offspring Carthage, I guess Maghribis, Sicilians and Spaniards have a valid claim to a piece of the land grabbing pie as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88
Had Israel never existed, it is quite likely that Beirut would now be the capital of a progressive and enlightened Arab sphere of advanced nations, and Palestine would be a democratic republic where Muslim and Jewish populations coexisted in peace, much as Muslims and Christians had co-existed in Lebanon for centuries. Muslims have no problem with Jews, they have a problem with Zionism. (The same problem Americans would have with Mexicans who wanted California back, and used international force to get it.)
Without Israel, there would have been nothing to impede the Middle East from advancing as successfully as Southeast Asia. Even in spite of several Israeli wars, a huge influx of refugees, and with no oil or natural resources, Jordan became a dignified and successful nation admired by all her Arab neighbors. The Arabs do have the capacity to construct workable and prosperous states, provided nobody keeps kicking them when they are down.
Nation states in that region that don't play well with western multi-national economic interests will find themselves on the wrong side of Uncle Sam's barrel.
Nation states in that region who look to develop their own citizenry and building institutions instead of Haliburton's or Chevron's represent an immediate threat which must be snuffed out immediately, for even if they have no desired natural resources, the dangerous infectious emotions of pride and self-confidence could spread thus endangering the very lifeline of western civilization.
So instead of developing our own renewable, non-polluting energy resources which gives us more leverage in dealing with an area that has a critical resource, we obediently spend trillions of tax payer dollars, sacrifice thousands of young Americans lives and bend over backwards and spread 'em so the TSA can get their jollies off, all in the name of saving western civilization.
There were pre-existing tensions in Lebanon but without the Six Day War, the resulting occupation, and the consequences of the Israelis taking the West Bank the Lebanese Civil War would not have been triggered in the same way.
Without the Six Day War Lebanon would be a prosperous country today. Every time it gets back on its feet it is the victim of Israeli aggression.
1) Don't get it...what occupation of Lebanon after 6 day war?
2) You apparently do not know the history of Lebanon. It's not really a country in the classic sense. For millennia, it was a part of greater Syria (same as Palestine). Ethnically its a hodge-podge with tensions dating back centuries. In the 19 century (long before modern Israel), one can read about massacre of Maronites
(1860 Lebanon conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).
3) These ethnic groups (like all over the Arab world) have their loyalty given to the clan or tribe. The "nation" of Lebanon is not a priority. As a result, the government doesn't really rule, and its not surprising that the army doesn't do that. Syria was and still is deeply involved in internal Lebanese affairs.
Since Lebanon is a weak link, it was indeed affected by the Israeli Arab conflict, with many refugees fleeing from Israel (in 1948) and later becoming home to endless militant and terrorist groups. (Even the famous Carlos spent time there).
Might the differences in status and perception of women in the two cultures be a contributing factor?
.
It certainly did not raise the USSR in our minds to any high standard, when by the 1960's, a majority of doctors were women---and truck drivers and engineers and technicians. In most Arab countries today, there are more female students than males at the secondary and university level. It is considered a serious criminal offense in Muslim countries to be in possession of anything pornographic. What does that say about the status and perception of women?
As to the supposed prosperity of Israel, what would become of them without American funds?
The US funding has nothing to do with the economy of Israel. It has to do with economy of the US. 75% of the funds come back to the US to buy military related equipment which translates to AMERICAN JOBS. So with the $750 million left over, do you really think that makes even a dent in the $16 Billion budget Israel sets for its defense?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
