Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
The Roman Republic/Empire wasn't even Christian for the vast majority of its history. Only in its waning years, starting with Constantine, did Christianity become legitimized and even the official religion of Rome - which of course the Byzantines inherited.
Because the old Rome had a pagan foundation, Emperor Constantine founded Constantinople [Byzantium] to be the Christian Rome.
The Roman Empire was a set of institutions -the Roman government, the Roman army, the Church, etc.- that formed within a temporally and culturally circumscribed area centered on the city of Rome, the capital, in the 1st centuries CE.
The only of those institutions that survives, largely as it existed in form and function, is the Roman Catholic Church. There was no other institution to come out of Rome conservative enough to be recognized as having an unbroken lineage from the old Empire.
Of course one could argue that a comprehensive state philosophy survived the fall of the Roman empire and has threaded its way through history in the form of successive European Empires.
But as far as any definable and coherent body, the RCC is the only surviving Roman institution and thus the only continuous surviving heir to the Roman Empire's existence.
The Holy Roman Empire, imperial Spain and England, and of late, the U.S., all said to be the offspring of the Roman Empire, are adopters of it's values and methods, but not its natural born inheritors. In the latter examples, England and the U.S., the government and military are more of a conflation of indigenous Germanic and adopted Roman structures and values.
The Roman Empire was a set of institutions -the Roman government, the Roman army, the Church, etc.- that formed within a temporally and culturally circumscribed area centered on the city of Rome, the capital, in the 1st centuries CE.
The only of those institutions that survives, largely as it existed in form and function, is the Roman Catholic Church. There was no other institution to come out of Rome conservative enough to be recognized as having an unbroken lineage from the old Empire.
Of course one could argue that a comprehensive state philosophy survived the fall of the Roman empire and has threaded its way through history in the form of successive European Empires.
But as far as any definable and coherent body, the RCC is the only surviving Roman institution and thus the only continuous surviving heir to the Roman Empire's existence.
The Holy Roman Empire, imperial Spain and England, and of late, the U.S., all said to be the offspring of the Roman Empire, are adopters of it's values and methods, but not its natural born inheritors. In the latter examples, England and the U.S., the government and military are more of a conflation of indigenous Germanic and adopted Roman structures and values.
"First Rome" was an Empire, Second Rome was an Empire, so when we are talking about the "Third Rome," it's more logical to talk about the Empire, not just church.
OK, but I would argue that the Third Rome theory is a fallacy anyway. When you talk about what is 'left over' from the Roman Empire that has any real substance, It is not, in my opinion, an iteration of an Empire.
But I admit, I read the question in the topic, What was the true continuation of the Roman Empire?, as What element of the Roman Empire has persisted continuously?
Last edited by ABQConvict; 07-16-2012 at 11:45 AM..
The last state that legitimately claimed an authentic continuation of the Roman empire was Byzantium.
The primary 3 empires laying claim to contiuation of ancient Rome in medieval times (Holy Roman Empire, Czar Russia, Ottoman Empire) had no authentic cultural connection to that ancient civilization, except for geography in the case of HRE and Ottomans.
Luckily, for mankind they are all out of power and no longer waging constant global war, as the Hapsbergs and Osmans seemed to enjoy nothing more.
The last state that legitimately claimed an authentic continuation of the Roman empire was Byzantium.
The primary 3 empires laying claim to contiuation of ancient Rome in medieval times (Holy Roman Empire, Czar Russia, Ottoman Empire) had no authentic cultural connection to that ancient civilization, except for geography in the case of HRE and Ottomans.
Luckily, for mankind they are all out of power and no longer waging constant global war, as the Hapsbergs and Osmans seemed to enjoy nothing more.
Only the American empire is now allowed to wage constant global war.
The last state that legitimately claimed an authentic continuation of the Roman empire was Byzantium.
The primary 3 empires laying claim to contiuation of ancient Rome in medieval times (Holy Roman Empire, Czar Russia, Ottoman Empire) had no authentic cultural connection to that ancient civilization, except for geography in the case of HRE and Ottomans.
Luckily, for mankind they are all out of power and no longer waging constant global war, as the Hapsbergs and Osmans seemed to enjoy nothing more.
The Roman Empire was a set of institutions -the Roman government, the Roman army, the Church, etc.- that formed within a temporally and culturally circumscribed area centered on the city of Rome, the capital, in the 1st centuries CE.
The only of those institutions that survives, largely as it existed in form and function, is the Roman Catholic Church. There was no other institution to come out of Rome conservative enough to be recognized as having an unbroken lineage from the old Empire.
Of course one could argue that a comprehensive state philosophy survived the fall of the Roman empire and has threaded its way through history in the form of successive European Empires.
But as far as any definable and coherent body, the RCC is the only surviving Roman institution and thus the only continuous surviving heir to the Roman Empire's existence.
The Holy Roman Empire, imperial Spain and England, and of late, the U.S., all said to be the offspring of the Roman Empire, are adopters of it's values and methods, but not its natural born inheritors. In the latter examples, England and the U.S., the government and military are more of a conflation of indigenous Germanic and adopted Roman structures and values.
One could argue based on the history that has been laid out previously in this thread that the Roman Catholic Church is actually an institution that broke away from the actual State Church of the Roman Empire. If we follow the root of Christianity through time and into the Roman Empire, the State Church of the Roman Empire essentially equals the Orthodox Church. The Catholic Church broke away for political reasons and then basically claimed itself as the continuation of Rome to allow them to legitimize the various rulers who provided them with protection. Just as you illustrated that many later adherents were the "barbarian" adoptions of Roman culture, one could argue that the RCC is essentially the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
The last state that legitimately claimed an authentic continuation of the Roman empire was Byzantium.
The primary 3 empires laying claim to contiuation of ancient Rome in medieval times (Holy Roman Empire, Czar Russia, Ottoman Empire) had no authentic cultural connection to that ancient civilization, except for geography in the case of HRE and Ottomans.
Luckily, for mankind they are all out of power and no longer waging constant global war, as the Hapsbergs and Osmans seemed to enjoy nothing more.
The legitimate cultural connection, at least in the case of Russia was the Orthodox religion and a direct claim to the Byzantine throne.
I would agree that the most logical successor to the Roman Empire was the Byzantine Empire. Although the empire diverged from Roman culture over time, the citizens of the empire preserved Roman culture to some extent and actually considered themselves Romans. I would point out that the prior to the deterioration of the relationship with the West, the Greek (pagan) identity was suppressed in the Byzantine Empire in favor of a Roman (Christian) identity. Over time, a resurgence of Greek identity was developed. As NJGoat stated, religion in Rome evolved throughout the course of the empire, and Christianity supplanted pagan beliefs.
In regards to the Holy Roman Empire, the first thing I remember learning about it is that is was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. It would be more accurately described as a loose confederation of German states. This also serves to illustrate the powerful desire of middle age peoples to identify as true Romans.
If we are to accept the Byzantines' self-styling as "Romans" in the sense that they were the inheritors of the legacy of Rome (true in a sense), then I don't see why the same cannot be applied to the Holy Roman Empire. Yes, it was pretty much a Germanic confederation. But "Germanics" were so named by the Romans. The ultimate etymology of "Germanic" is uncertain - but what's indisputable is that it started as an exonym applied to the Germanic peoples by the Romans. If you are Germanic and want to learn more about your ancient heritage, then the primary source to turn to is Tacitus.
I think the reality is that there is not just one true successor to the Roman Empire. Rather, the immense legacy of the Roman Empire is so pervasive that pretty much all modern European states (and, consequently, overseas current & former European possessions) can be thought as as successors to Rome.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
